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So after trying a mainly foot slogging Eldar list and finding them not quite mobile or hard hitting enough I have turned my eye to a mechanized style, I am happy with how this list looks and am interested in what you guys think of it from a competitive point of view. PUNCH SOME HOLES IN IT!

Farseer, Doom, Guide, RoWi, Stones, Spear 133

10 Dire Avengers, Exarch, PW+SS, Bladestorm 162

10 Dire Avengers, Exarch, Shuriken Cannon*2, Bladestorm 152

10 Dire Avengers, Exarch, Shuriken Cannon*2, Bladestorm 152

Waveserpent, EML, Cannon 130

Waveserpent, EML, Cannon 130

Waveserpent, EML, Cannon 130

6 Fire Dragons, Exarch, Pike, Tank Hunters 131

Waveserpent, Scatter Laser, Cannon, Star Engines 140

Fire Prism 115

Fire Prism 115

1490

(Farseer rides in one of the DA squads with double Shuriken catapults).
So, what do you think? I don't want it to be a "tier 1/ WAAC" type army, just competitive, Thanks.

I would drop the last Wave Serpent and replace it with a Falcon for your Fire Dragons if you're only running a small squad. "Snakes on a plane."

Wave Serpents don't need the Shuriken Cannon, replace them with Spirit Stones.

EasyE wrote:I would drop the last Wave Serpent and replace it with a Falcon for your Fire Dragons if you're only running a small squad. "Snakes on a plane."

Wave Serpents don't need the Shuriken Cannon, replace them with Spirit Stones.

Why would you drop the wave serpent for a falcon if he couldnt afford holofields? No reason. Good. Dont.

Wave Seperents, with TL-emls, work every well with hull shuriken cannons, keep them. Dude, try and either rationalise your advice or think before you type.

What you do need are spirit stones. Skimmers flat-out moving 24" always (as long as your not immobed) granted movement & cover saves.

Also - fortune for the farseer. Fortuned 4+ cover saved wave serpents is really a good thing, especially if you plan to move 36".

The pike doesnt do much that a fire dragon squad & the mobility of a wave serpent cant handle. A dragons breath OTOH allows that dragon squad to put a nice dent in horde units (for games where you wouldnt even need anti-tank weaponary, aka hordey orks)

So, Make some room for; 4x Spirit stones (the prisms could use them, but its not critical) & 1x fortune.

Then itll be a fine, standard, mech eldar list. Nothing new.

Thanks for the advice, I hadn't considered the falcon that much but I suppose I was paying 140 pts for the Fragons Waveserpent anyway.......I do however quite like the idea of shuriken cannons on all the serpents, but I'll look to make room for the spirit stones.

@Razerous: How important would you say fortune is? Do you think it warrants dropping guide on the Farseer, or should I look for the points elsewhere?
BTW I deliberately stayed away from reading other Mechdar threads in an attempt to make my list unique, and now you tell me its standard!!! *A single tear rolls down Foldalot's face*.

Foldalot wrote:Thanks for the advice, I hadn't considered the falcon that much but I suppose I was paying 140 pts for the Fragons Waveserpent anyway.......I do however quite like the idea of shuriken cannons on all the serpents, but I'll look to make room for the spirit stones.

@Razerous: How important would you say fortune is? Do you think it warrants dropping guide on the Farseer, or should I look for the points elsewhere?
BTW I deliberately stayed away from reading other Mechdar threads in an attempt to make my list unique, and now you tell me its standard!!! *A single tear rolls down Foldalot's face*.

The falcon is only good because it can have holofields (instead of the energyfield rule) at additional cost. I think the holofield rule makes it tougher than a energ-fielded wave serpent. The weaponary it can field is quite good but it does come down to survivability. If your not prepared to pay the points for holofields, stick with the reliable serpent.

As for the farseer - Guide & doom are essentail, if you plan to use them with dire avengers or fire dragons (there could well be a time when 6 TL-BS4 shots from fusion guns would be required to annhilate a strong multi-wound squad with a high save. Ofcource guide on the DA's with the amount of shots they can put out is always a good thing. Doom, again, is just farr too good to pass up.

Fortune is really a tertiary power, used during the transport-phase of the farseer & his squads time on the board. If you plan to deploy the transported unit as fast as possibly or/and keep the skimmer moving flat-out for a turn or two - Then fortune will be well worth the points. I do suggest you find the points elsewhere compared to dropping your current powers.


To make the points;

Drop one fire dragon, the firepike (the remaining members will be more than able to still deal with armor), the hull shuriken cannnon on the last serpent aswell as replacing the TL-scatter laser with a TL-shuriken cannon. You now have 47pts spare, enough to buy 4x Spirit stones on all your wave serpents.
You have lost little, as the downgraded armements of the wave-serpent should be travelling flat-out (thus not being able to fire) but gained much.

Oh, one last thing - Swap your Runes of Witnessing for Runes of warding - If your ever going to face any enemy psykers. Runes of Witnessing actually make it more likely for you to fail as your more likely to roll doubles (I think - theres some reason why thier counter-productive!)

As for the standardness of the design - You have done well coming up with a well balanced list and as such so have alot of other people. Personally I'd would mark this list out from the rest purely for the inclusion of Star-engines, Somthing which nearly always gets Ignored in others lists.

Ive been running a mech list for a long time now and I can honestly say that your list needs a few improvements.

ill get on to that in a second but first, I need to quote this:
"
Oh, one last thing - Swap your Runes of Witnessing for Runes of warding - If your ever going to face any enemy psykers. Runes of Witnessing actually make it more likely for you to fail as your more likely to roll doubles (I think - theres some reason why thier counter-productive!) "

Wrong. complete wrong.

heres the math:


Without runes a farseer will fail to use his power 8.3% of the time. When using spirit stones a farseer will perhaps be making 10-12 of these rolls during a game in which he survives. That means he will very likely fail at least one power usage.

With runes a farseer will fail to use his power 1.9% of the time. Even with a dozen rolls he is unlikely to fail one.


Without runes a farseer will suffer a perils of the warp 5.6% of the time. Of course, his ghosthelm stops most of these, lowering it to 1.87% actual attacks. Of which his invuln save will lower this to a 1.4% chance of taking one wound.

With runes a farseer will suffer a perils of the warp 7.9% of the time. This is because that while the odds of a double one are greatly increased, the only way to get double 6s is to actually roll a triple 6. Of course the ghosthelm stops most of these, lowering it to 2.63% actual attacks. Of which his invuln save will lower this to a 1.97% chance of taking one wound

therefore runes of witnessing raises the chance of suffering a perils of the warp attack by 0.57 percent, whilst lowering chance of failure by 6.4 percent. I know what id pick.

Personally im going to be slightly more critical than Razerous. Nothing personal Raz, but me and you never seem quite eye to eye when talking on these matters.

Basically First ill show the list im running at this moment:

HQ
Farseer 55 points
- Runes of witnessing
- Spirit stones
- Doom
- Guide
- Mind war
- Spirit Spear
Total cost = 158 points

Farseer 55 points
- Runes of witnessing
- Spirit stones
- Doom
- Guide
- Spirit spear
Total cost = 138 points

Troops
10x dire avengers 120 points
- Exarch
- Dual shuriken catapults
- Blade storm
- Wave serpent 90 points
o Twin linked Missile Launcher
o Spirit Stones
Total = 282 points

10x dire avengers 120 points
- Exarch
- Dual shuriken catapults
- Blade storm
- Wave serpent 90 points
o Twin linked Missile launcher
o Spirit Stones
Total = 282 points

Pathfinders x5 120 points
Total 120 points

Heavy support
Fire Prism 115 points
- Holo-fields
- Spirit Stones
Total = 160 points

Fire Prism 115 points
- Holo-fields
- Spirit Stones
Total = 160 points

Dark Reapersx5 175 points
- Exarch
- Crack shot
Total = 197 points
Total cost 1498 points


I think you can see how this list works so ill be pretty quick in explaining how it works: Farseer in each Dire Avenger Squad.

I put mind war on the Farseer because my club doesnt have anyone who runs a Psyker, for tournements I use Runes of warding instead.

I put spiritstones on each vehicle because a stunned vehicle is probably gonna die next turn but also because with Fire Prisms you can be out of los of the enemy, fly 12 inch out Fire your Prisms, get shot back at, usually end up being shaken fly back into cover then repeat. Without stones you'd probably be stunned repeatedly and destroyed.

I dont bother with Shuriken cannons as they cant shoot if you move over six inches, and you always will be. Star engines are not as good as you'd think they'd be. 24 inches is usually ample room for manuveur, especially as star engines say "Can not embark is disembark this turn" so you cant use it on the turn your guys get back into the vehicle. and your guys will rarely be in a vehicle for two consecutive turns.


I use the Rangers because 2+ cover saves mean that they are able to hold an objective against almost all ranged fire, and the Dark Reapers are just fantastic at killing space marines. Especially if the unit they are shooting at is doomed!

Foldalot, that's a good start, and welcome to the speedy side of Eldar! The 3x Avengers is good, including the 1x PW/SS for holding out in CC. The EML/SC configuration makes good use of your Serpents. The star engines on the Dragons' transport are good. And 6 tanks at 1500 is also good.

As for changes, I'm on board with Razerous's recommendations, for the most part:

Stones are needed.

Fortune is better than Guide for a mounted Farseer accompanying BS4 troops.

You do need runes of Warding to keep your troops safe from Lask and Psyker Battle Squads. You need this more than making your powers all the time.

And a Serpent is better at close range (melta-proofing) than a Falcon is, and your Dragons need to be dropped off at that range.

Shuriken cannons on EML Serpents are good, as you can fire the templates and cannon and still move 12". I know you get this, but it seems to need to be pointed out to others commenting on the thread.


OTOH, I strongly disagree with Combo's setup. Those Pathfinders and Reapers will get cut up by any anti-infantry units that would otherwise be frustrated by your all-mech setup for the first few turns.

I do agree that the scatterlaser and shuricannon on the Dragons' transport is unnecessary all 'round, as they will be jetting fast, or over 6" every turn. You could cut both and go with basic TL shuricannons, which would take you a long ways towards your costs for stones on the other vehicles.


Finally, a minor tweak I would recommend on my own:

You don't need an exarch at all in Dragons. He adds very little even with the flamer, as they will usually be hunting vehicles. Another melta shot is more useful, just in case your dice turn sour. If you really, really want a flamer, buy the exarch only AFTER you have stones on all your vehicles, etc.


If you do decide to go to 1750 with this list, another Serpent full of Dragons or a CC unit would be good. I like Banshees for mounted assault.

Really, you want your farseer to run with both runes now. Previously the runes of warding were nice to shut down lash lists and librarians, but now with dirt cheap IG psycher units in too many lists they are pretty much required. And runes of witnessing are only 10 points. Without runes of witnessing you are counting on failing one psychic test per farseer in most games, with a rune its one game in four or so. I kind of count on doom landing each turn that its used. The increased chance of success far outweighs the minor increased chance of suffering a wound on the farseer.

Spirit stones on your transports are always a good idea, but its a little less important for the prisms. In fact naked prisms are fine, especially since they may draw a bit more AT fire away from your really important transports. Tough prisms are nice, but upgrading a couple prisms with stones and holo fields costs 90 points, a pretty serious chunk of points at the 1500 level.

Serpents are better than falcons for all of the reasons listed, but also because falcons use up a heavy choice. And the eldar list has many better options than a falcon for that heavy slot.


Sliggoth

Thank you for all the great advice, its very helpful and insightful. After looking at what you had to say heres the revised list:

Farseer, Doom, Guide, RoWi, RoWa, Stones, Spear 148

10 Dire Avengers, Exarch, PW+SS, Bladestorm 162

10 Dire Avengers, Exarch, Shuriken Catapult*2, Bladestorm 152

10 Dire Avengers, Exarch, Shuriken Catapult*2, Bladestorm 152

Waveserpent, EML, Cannon, SS 140

Waveserpent, EML, Cannon, SS 140

Waveserpent, EML, Cannon, SS 140

5 Fire Dragons 80

Waveserpent, Shuriken Cannon*2 , Star Engines, SS 135

Fire Prism, SS 125

Fire Prism, SS 125

1499

Basically dropped the Fire Dragon exarch, replaced the Fragons Wave serpents Scatter laser with shuriken cannons and with those points bought RoWa and 6 spirit stones for all the vehicles. I decided to keep the RoWi as I want to be able to rely on the spell going off, and I am not too concerned about the Farseers wounds as he should not be drawing much, if any, enemy fire. The lack of fortune does irk me a bit but to make room for it I would really need to start hacking away at the list.

So hows this looking for a starting point?

Well, I'd drop the RoWi and one shuricannon from the FD Serpent. This would allow you to take another FD.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, I'd drop the RoWi and one shuricannon from the FD Serpent. This would allow you to take another FD.

I doubt that just one more fire dragon would make the unit much more killy where as the RoWi make the Farseer, much more reliable. I value this dependability on the Farseer as he really is the heart of any devestating attack, when I call a bladestorm I don't want doom to fail.

Well, RoWi is indeed more reliable:

With two dice, the combinations 5,5 and 5,6 and 6,5 and 6,6 lead to failure: 2^2/6^2 = 1/9 = 0.11

With three dice, the combinations 5,5,5 and 5,5,6 and ... and 6,6,6 lead to failure: 2^3/6^3 = 0.037.

Hi foldalot, I've got to say that list looks pretty cool and I may steal the idea of guns on the avenger serpents and star engines/stones on the fire dragon serpent. My only quibble is that I tried PW/SS on the DA exarch and found it wasn't worth the points. If you play against marines a lot I'm not sure that 3xDA squads isn't too much, since you're relying on your opponent whiffing his armour saves. On the other hand they do kick arse against orks, tyranids, IG, etc. Bladestorm!

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly, PW/SS isn't about winning, it's about surviving. It keeps troops on a vital objective alive.

Also, DAs are the best troops choice in this sort of list, and you need at least 3. Guardians are less offensive and less durable, jetbikes will dilute your number of tanks and offer anti-MEQ fire something to pick on, and Rangers are too static. DAs count in large amounts. Yes, you're relying on your enemy to fail armor/cover saves. With Doom and a Bladestorm, that's not a hard thing to rely on.

Drop RoWi.

Drop all the Exarches from the DA and then give all the Waveserpents TLBL. Swap one of the DA Squads for a Firedragon squad. Drop a Fireprism and give the other one a SC. Keep the waveserpents SC. Try to fit in a small jetcouncil.

You hide the DA and use their WS TLBL and pop light armor. The Firedragons annihilate something then the jet council swoops in for the kill. The Fireprism does its thing. Don't unload your troops unless you absolutely have to, its all about the council. Bladestorm is a waste IMHO. Great! You just shot a lot, o wait if want to use their actual good guns for the next turn you can't. Instead of bladestorming, sit them at 18" away and shoot them at said target and move them back 6" a turn and you will get a lot more shots off then that one bladestorm did. If you have to have exarches run them with Shimmershields but you might as well spend the points on a council, they will do what the DA do 100x better.

Drop all the Exarchs?!

your aware he will lose bladestorm of that, aren't you?

Your list is shaping up nicely, but i would reccomend cutting some fat and getting holofields on your Fire Prisms. They save my fire Prisms atleast 3 times a game usually.

Also the bladestorm is fantastic, thinking otherwise is not understanding a mech list. You wont be shooting each turn, you'll shoot. Spend a turn repositioning then shoot again. Ergo Bladestorm is fantastic.

Really. Wth, not having Bladestorm is quite possibly one of the silliest decisions you can make.

Watch:

20 shots by a squad without an exarch against MEQ.
2/3 hit. 13.3 hits.
13.3 hits, 6.6 wounds.

32 shots from Bladestorm(5 from the Exarch)
2/3 hit, 21 hit.
21 hits, 10.5 wounds.

then you should usually have doom and guide, which means averaged out you'll have between 21-22 wounds from a single round of shooting, Bladestorm is quite possibly the best anti infantry move in the game, period.

Savnock I do agree to a point with you, the Dark Reapers are in because of the amount of space marine players at my Local, and the Pathfinders are fantastic at holding objectives, which is one short coming of DA.

However saying that, I often run the list with a Falcon instead of Dark Reapers and Fire Dragons instead of rangers. it depends.

Okay - ive seen the math & I refute my own claims - I was just Sure RoWi had some counter-intuative adverse affect.

Its a decent mech lists, a good amount of tanks & a health selection of troops. The shimmer shield dire avenger squad will allow you to enagage & tarpit a fair few units - Even more with fortune! Oh wait - you havent got fortune

Fortune > holofields. Fortune, I'd say, > Fire prism spirit stones. Fortune will make 100% use of your farseer, throughout his time on the board, aswell as opening up some tactical options.

A prism can outrange alot of enemy fire, it can often sit in the corner, zipping 12" along the egde of the board taking oppertune shots whilst staying in cover from most return enemy fire. @ 115pts it is also not a high-value target, yet it can cause alot of damage.

I like the most revised list - I see youve dropped the dragon exarch - thats fine, between them, the prisms & the EML's, you should be fine dealing with armor.

I would recommend dropping 2x fire prism spirit stones in favour of the farseer power fortune, but thats just me.

Edit: Woah.. wait. RoWi;

Without, perils of the warp wound on; 1 1, 5 6 & 6 6

With, perils of the warp wound on 1 1 1, 1 1 2, 1 1 3, 1 1 4, 1 1 5, 1 1 6, 5 6 6, 6 6 6.

(*Minor edit mk.2: In terms of permutations of the rolling, you have four outcomes on two die that result in a PotW wound vs 22 outcomes on three die, after discarding the highest (as per the rule), to suffer a PotW wound)

Thats 3* possible causes of PotW vs 8* possibly causes of perils of the warp? Sure your more likely to pass with RoWi but your more likely to suffer a wound. As to taking a ghosthelm save then a invunerable save - I would assume not. I think the ghosthelm replaces your ability to take an invunerable save (with a forced re-roll) with the much better standard 3+ save.

Dire Avengers are a shooting unit no doubt about that. So if bladestorm fails to wipe out the unit and you get into assault even with Tactical Marines, sure that PW might win you the combat. O wait, then your in the open for en masse return fire which I promise you a smart opponent will rip that squad into pieces meaning one scoring unit. Don't worry about the DA's. If they are picking off units like that that easily then you have won most of the time. I'd rather sit them 18" away where not much but Hormoguants and Flying units can touch me (ergo I don't do this to this unit interesting fact) and fire two rounds of shooting and with your math that over at least two turns of shooting I would cause 13.2 wounds to the unit. You would be reloading that second turn. The naked DA unit also costs less, a good what 40 point less? Thats a jetlock or it will get you closer to having a jetlock.

And with doom and guide over 2 turns you get a total of 31.5 wounds without bladestorm.

Forgot to say that your new list is looking great, Foldalot.

Fortune is indeed better than Guide in a mech list, as you will use it more. SMF will not apply in any turn that you want those skimmers to shoot or drop off troops, which is to say 5/6 of the time. Use cover and Fortune to keep them alive.

On RoWi: Rarely will PotW kill your Farseer. That's not the issue.

However, keep the stones on your Prisms, no matter what. The ability to hide on a turn you cannot shoot (or even tank shock) makes them both more survivable and more useful.

More importantly: Get Eldrad, since you're so close to paying that 210 points already. You get more powers (including 2x Fortune, which is extremely helpful with mech), a power weapon that wounds on 2's in CC, and most importantly the repositioning rule. This last thing wins games all the time. He's totally worth it. 3x powers, T4, 3+ invuln save, etc.- total gold. Then you can Guide when it's really needed, Doom all the time, and Fortune in the beginning rounds and in melee.

To get the points, you could drop the star engines from the Dragons' transport (24" plus 12" and 2" deployment is a lot already, and with Eldrad's redeployment rule you can already be across from whatever you need to kill). You could drop the second shuricannon on that transport (you're moving too fast to use it, usually). Lastly, trim a DA or two if you need to. It's well worth what you gain.

And screw everyone who says Eldrad is a crutch. compared to Lash, Nob bikers, aircav IG, etc. he's very, very balanced.

But really that's all just polishing. You've got a very solid list there. Now go kick some butt with it and help us get mechdar back into those top tiers. There are lots of new IG players out there who need to learn their place...

What the guy said above me is very true. Dropping those exarches would probably give you the points for Eldrad and then you could actually maybe run a Foot Concil with him if you wanted too or put in him a DA squad or something.

As I have no experience with Mechdar and comparatively little with even foot Eldar I am speaking from a theoretical point of view, that being said heres my take on Bladestorm. Having fast transports for all three DA squads means that I should be able to position them in such a way that when my squads disembark will only be in range and LOS of one, maybe two, squads. They then Bladestorm this (most likely doomed) squad, next turn then reembark and zoom off to safety. If I need to inflict some serious damage I can do this with all three squads and kill off a lot of enemies whilst also presenting too many targets to effectively engage. The fireprisms will ofcourse be able to help out in minimizing return fire too, by putting the hurt on the most dangerous enemy squads.
/theoryhammer.

I'll do some soul searching today and decide what can go to make room for Fortune and possibly defend on the tar pit Exarch.

EzeKK wrote:Dire Avengers are a shooting unit no doubt about that. So if bladestorm fails to wipe out the unit and you get into assault even with Tactical Marines, sure that PW might win you the combat. O wait, then your in the open for en masse return fire which I promise you a smart opponent will rip that squad into pieces meaning one scoring unit. Don't worry about the DA's. If they are picking off units like that that easily then you have won most of the time. I'd rather sit them 18" away where not much but Hormoguants and Flying units can touch me (ergo I don't do this to this unit interesting fact) and fire two rounds of shooting and with your math that over at least two turns of shooting I would cause 13.2 wounds to the unit. You would be reloading that second turn. The naked DA unit also costs less, a good what 40 point less? Thats a jetlock or it will get you closer to having a jetlock.

And with doom and guide over 2 turns you get a total of 31.5 wounds without bladestorm.

Dire avengers rarely get chance to fire twice consecutively, especially in a mech list. Therefore you want to maximise the damage they do in the turn they fire. Whats the point of buying them transports if they are not going to use them to relocate effectively, it doesnt make sense. Sure Shooting over two turns causes more wounds than a single bladestorm but the trade off is that you do the wounds in a single turn, rather than over a longer period of time.

Foldalot wrote:As I have no experience with Mechdar and comparatively little with even foot Eldar I am speaking from a theoretical point of view, that being said heres my take on Bladestorm. Having fast transports for all three DA squads means that I should be able to position them in such a way that when my squads disembark will only be in range and LOS of one, maybe two, squads. They then Bladestorm this (most likely doomed) squad, next turn then reembark and zoom off to safety. If I need to inflict some serious damage I can do this with all three squads and kill off a lot of enemies whilst also presenting too many targets to effectively engage. The fireprisms will ofcourse be able to help out in minimizing return fire too, by putting the hurt on the most dangerous enemy squads.
/theoryhammer.

I'll do some soul searching today and decide what can go to make room for Fortune and possibly defend on the tar pit Exarch.

Exactly my friend, your list may not be 100percent like how id field it, but it should work nicely. Getting ride of bladestorm completely ruins the whole point of mech, its about weight of damage in a minimum time possible, not sustained high damage.


as for advice on how your list is shaping up, I'd personally try and get a second Farseer, doom and guide will really increase your damage, and I really cant stress it enough get holofields, they will save your Fire Prisms, Holofields ARE the survivability of Eldar vehicles, its basically a better venerable rule.

id cut a shuriken cannon from the Fire Dragon Wave Serpent, two is overkill. Also id cut Star Engines, You cant embark onto the Transport on the turn you use them, and 24 inches is more than enough mobility.

combo wrote:
as for advice on how your list is shaping up, I'd personally try and get a second Farseer, doom and guide will really increase your damage, and I really cant stress it enough get holofields, they will save your Fire Prisms, Holofields ARE the survivability of Eldar vehicles, its basically a better venerable rule.

id cut a shuriken cannon from the Fire Dragon Wave Serpent, two is overkill. Also id cut Star Engines, You cant embark onto the Transport on the turn you use them, and 24 inches is more than enough mobility.

Youve spend your points accordingly & adding things like farseers will change the dynamic of your army drastically as you'll be required to drop a chunk of it. One will do & keep him cheap, a 120pt farseer is fine. I do now believe that RoWi will cause your farseer alot more wounds, due to double 1's causing a wound & being forced to discard the highest..causing you to have to take double 1 rolls alot more often. Fortune is good for the turn that warlock runs up the field in the SMF - a 36" range will put you virtually anywhere in range with the avenger cats. 24" not so much. That 1ft does make a differeance.

The dire avengers, guided & doom-up will kill stuff. They will basically kill pretty much anything. So those two powers come first - Otherwise why take full 10man exarch'ed units.

Two shuriken cannons is overkill, that skimmer will be moving fast often. Once unloaded, it can arguably do more damage 24" ramming into other vehicles with another 12" after that to help block LOS to other elements of your army. Just a thought.

Lastly - Wave serpents are the surviveability of Eldar. You will be using these vehicles offensively. Holofields are secondary, esepcially on non-front line vehicles such as the prism. Again, taking these holofields will drastically change the dynamic of the army as it will require 70pts to field both upgrades. SS are very useful but fortune will be more of worth - as the farseer & dragon/dire avenger wave serpenet, 24-36" moving 1st turn will draw alot of fire. Even more so, with fortune.

There really are two schools of thought on prisms.


One method is to tool them up with stones and holofields to make them tougher to kill.

The other method is to take them naked and use the points elsewhere in the list.



I personally tend to go with naked prisms in a mech list. At 115 points each vs 160 each that is 90 points to spend, a big chunk of another unit. With a lot of serpents in my list I LIKE it when my opponent is burning shots at the prisms. If my prisms get stunned then that means my opponent will likely be shooting at it again next turn... instead of shooting at a serpent again. If anything I might take a holofield and skip the stones since part of the prisms job is to draw fire. But for 90 points I can usually find another 25 points somewhere and get a third prism. Three prisms are extremely scary to some opponents, they wont be happy until at least two of them are dead or weaponless. A couple dead prisms = a couple live serpents.

Its a matter of taste tho, and also a matter of tactics. There is nothing wrong with running a couple of toughened up prisms, its just a different startegy.



Sliggoth

Youve spend your points accordingly & adding things like farseers will change the dynamic of your army drastically as you'll be required to drop a chunk of it. One will do & keep him cheap, a 120pt farseer is fine. I do now believe that RoWi will cause your farseer alot more wounds, due to double 1's causing a wound & being forced to discard the highest..causing you to have to take double 1 rolls alot more often. Fortune is good for the turn that warlock runs up the field in the SMF - a 36" range will put you virtually anywhere in range with the avenger cats. 24" not so much. That 1ft does make a differeance.

On hindsight I agree about adding the second Farseer, youd have to do a complete rework to add him in.
As for RoWi Ive already shown the math, it does increase PotW slightly but also decreases failure as a whole more, check my earliest post for that, belief isnt really substituite for math.

The dire avengers, guided & doom-up will kill stuff. They will basically kill pretty much anything. So those two powers come first - Otherwise why take full 10man exarch'ed units.

agree 100percent

Two shuriken cannons is overkill, that skimmer will be moving fast often. Once unloaded, it can arguably do more damage 24" ramming into other vehicles with another 12" after that to help block LOS to other elements of your army. Just a thought.

agree that two shuriken cannons are overkill. Disagree about the Star engines still. As ive mentioned multiple times the inability to use them on the turn you embark, coupled with the fact you'll be disembarking every other turn makes them relatively useless. Plus 12 inches is handy but not amazing.

Lastly - Wave serpents are the surviveability of Eldar. You will be using these vehicles offensively. Holofields are secondary, esepcially on non-front line vehicles such as the prism. Again, taking these holofields will drastically change the dynamic of the army as it will require 70pts to field both upgrades. SS are very useful but fortune will be more of worth - as the farseer & dragon/dire avenger wave serpenet, 24-36" moving 1st turn will draw alot of fire. Even more so, with fortune.

Holofields are not secondry, Theres enough long range fire power in the game, and enough deep striking units equiped with anti tank weaponry to mean that even playing at high skill levels, you are going to get some anti tank fire hitting your Fire Prisms, Holofields will reduce the potential damage you'll take, its plain to see. Assuming clever positioning will stop your Fire Prisms taking fire is a risky game that you won't win consistently.

Dude, if you're going to buy Fortune on top of that already-expensive lesser Seer, buy Eldrad. Try it, you'll never want to play without him again. C'mon, kid, first one's free (muhuhahaha... ahem).

I'd also like to point out that if Eldrad is with your Avengers, he can Guide their shots. This is about as good as Bladestorm. that would justify trimming some points. At the very least, you could trim the extra shuricats, as it's a minimal amount of added firepower.

Ok, I won't re post the whole army but what I am thinking is this. Drop the two SS's on the prisms, drop the RoWi from the Farseer and instead give him fortune. The other thing I'm considering is dropping the second shuriken cannon off of the Fragons waveserpent as well as a second shuriken catapult off of one of the DA Exarchs and use these 15 points to buy Defend on the Tar Pit Exarch as I want a unit that is capable of receiving a counter charge. Losing the hull mounted SC on the Fragons waveserpent is, as you pointed, out no great loss nor is losing the Exarchs second gun (it reduces one units potential shots from 32 to 30/ 22 to 20). The Farseer would stick with the third squad of DA's who contain the Exarch with two guns so as to maximize his guide/ doom nastiness.

As an aside can I just say thanks for all the help, I really REALLY like how this list is now looking!

If your going to take Fortune then you should upgrade to Eldrad, he can fortune guide and doom all in one turn, your other farseer cannot.

Also I really disagree against taking the spirit stones off your fire prisms, you should be considering adding holofields, not removing defences. Losing a weapon or being immobilised is a seal of death for a fire prism, you want Spirit stones to allow you to run away from heavy fire power, and holofields to reduce potential deaths to shaken results.