Slow and Purposeful and Assault

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**Axyl**

Forgive me if this has been covered before, but does an assaulting unit that has the slow and purposeful rule strike at initiative 1 when assaulting?

Pg 76 Slow and Purposeful - "They always count as moving through difficult terrain (including in assaults)."

Pg 36 Assaulting through cover - "If any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move..."

Obviously the models themselves are not moving through actual difficult terrain leading me to believe they would strike at normal initiative, but if they count as moving through difficult terrain then do they still follow the rules for assaulting through difficult terrain/cover?

Edit: This was meant for YMDC...if a mod could please move this thread.

**Tri**

Yes you count as moving through difficult terrain, so unless you've Assault Grenades you'll be striking at I1 ... But off the top of my head I can't think of a model with S&P that doesn't have a Power fist, so they'd be striking at I1 any way

**Deffgob**

Tri wrote:Yes you count as moving through difficult terrain, so unless you've Assault Grenades you'll be striking at I1 ... But off the top of my head I can't think of a model with S&P that doesn't have a Power fist, so they'd be striking at I1 any way

QFT

And on a side note, I've never ceased to find amusement in the fact that MANZ have to hold PKs, but are given assault grenades.

**Gwar!**

Tri wrote:Yes you count as moving through difficult terrain, so unless you've Assault Grenades you'll be striking at I1 ... But off the top of my head I can't think of a model with S&P that doesn't have a Power fist, so they'd be striking at I1 any way

100% behind Tri on this, which makes a change

But yeah, SnP = Moving through Difficult terrain so they strike at I1 in the first round of combat unless they have grenades/are charged at rather than charge.

IIRC Thousand Sons have SnP. Chaos Spawn too I think.

Edit: Yup, Thousand Sons have SnP and only have Bolters, while Chaos Spawn are Fast Attack and have SnP. I lol'd especially hard at that.

**Axyl**

Tri wrote:But off the top of my head I can't think of a model with S&P that doesn't have a Power fist, so they'd be striking at I1 any way

Legion of the damned from the Marine dex.

But thanks it seems that the answer is pretty unanimous.

Edit: Oh and they do seem to have frag grenades so duh on my part.

**willydstyle**

Don't forget Broadsides with ASS.

**Gwar!**

willydstyle wrote:Don't forget Broadsides with ASS.

When are you EVER going to assault with Broadsides?

**Tri**

My so many units that have it and no P.Fist... but if I'm honest other then possibly Legion of the damned they've no place in close combat ... and spawn have no place in a chaos army.

**Gwar!**

Tri wrote:My so many units that have it and no P.Fist... but if I'm honest other then possibly Legion of the damned they've no place in close combat ... and spawn have no place in a chaos army.

Even then LotD are a far from optimal choice, and they are by far more proficient at shooting than assault. And +1 on the Spawn thing.

**willydstyle**

Gwar! wrote:
willydstyle wrote:Don't forget Broadsides with ASS.
When are you EVER going to assault with Broadsides?

If you're being over-run by all infantry guard? Just because you wont be doing something often doesn't mean you shouldn't think about when it would be beneficial to do it!

**Gwar!**

Lies. Even if you are being over-run by all infantry guard, you are gonna kill more firing your rails at them than in CC..

in fact, I'm gonna work the mathhammer on this (Curtosy of the HAMulator.
Single Broadside Against Guard:
Rails: 37.5% Chance of No Wounds, 62.5% of 1 wound. Average wounds 0.625
SMS: 2% Of no wounds, 13.2% of 1 wound, 33% Chance of 2 wounds, 36.6% for 3 Wounds, 15.3% for 4 wounds. Average wounds 2.5.

Shooting Average: 3 Dead Guard.

Assault:
Assauting a Squad of 10 Guardsmen with no Fist.
I3 Band: 11 S3 Attacks, WS3 vs WS2:
66% Chance of No Wounds Suffered, 27.9% of 1 Wound Suffered, 5.4% of 2 Wound Suffered, 0.6% for 3 wounds.
Average wounds 0.407

I1 Band:
3 Attacks at Ws2 vs Ws 3:
I'll cut to the chase: Average wounds 0.833

Assault Average: 1 Dead Broadside

So there you have it, mathematical proof to never ever assault with Broadsides.

**iamthecougar**

Tri wrote:My so many units that have it and no P.Fist... but if I'm honest other then possibly Legion of the damned they've no place in close combat ... and spawn have no place in a chaos army.

Don't plaguebearers have snp and an upgrade for grenades? They really have no place anywhere but cc.
And on an interesting side note, it makes me laugh that chaos spawn are slow and purposeful yet still fleet of foot.

**Gwar!**

iamthecougar wrote:And on an interesting side note, it makes me laugh that chaos spawn are slow and purposeful yet still fleet of foot.

Indeed, and many Lollerwallfes were had by all.

**Che-Vito**

Gwar! wrote:
willydstyle wrote:Don't forget Broadsides with ASS.
When are you EVER going to assault with Broadsides?

"Just because you don't believe in it, doesn't mean it's not there..."

I believe that somewhere in the grim darkness of the far future, there is an elite assault-oriented Broadside squad...
I believe.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:Lies. Even if you are being over-run by all infantry guard, you are gonna kill more firing your rails at them than in CC..

in fact, I'm gonna work the mathhammer on this (Curtosy of the HAMulator.
Single Broadside Against Guard:
Rails: 37.5% Chance of No Wounds, 62.5% of 1 wound. Average wounds 0.625
SMS: 2% Of no wounds, 13.2% of 1 wound, 33% Chance of 2 wounds, 36.6% for 3 Wounds, 15.3% for 4 wounds. Average wounds 2.5.

Shooting Average: 3 Dead Guard.

Assault:
Assauting a Squad of 10 Guardsmen with no Fist.
I3 Band: 11 S3 Attacks, WS3 vs WS2:
66% Chance of No Wounds Suffered, 27.9% of 1 Wound Suffered, 5.4% of 2 Wound Suffered, 0.6% for 3 wounds.
Average wounds 0.407

I1 Band:
3 Attacks at Ws2 vs Ws 3:
I'll cut to the chase: Average wounds 0.833

Assault Average: 1 Dead Broadside

So there you have it, mathematical proof to never ever assault with Broadsides.

Broadsides have 2 wounds...

**Gwar!**

Sweeping Advance? Not to mention a Broadside in CC is a useless Broadside and may as well be dead. The fact is that the Broadside does much less damage assaulting a unit than firing at it. Hell the SMS alone (I don't know if they can fire both weapons, I don't play crap armies) causes more than double the dead guardsmen from assaulting proves it. When contended with a unit getting into assault range, a Broadsides only hope is to fire at the guys and pray he makes them break.

**Che-Vito**

Gwar! wrote:Sweeping Advance? Not to mention a Broadside in CC is a useless Broadside and may as well be dead. The fact is that the Broadside does much less damage assaulting a unit than firing at it. Hell the SMS alone (I don't know if they can fire both weapons, I don't play crap armies) causes more than double the dead guardsmen from assaulting proves it. When contended with a unit getting into assault range, a Broadsides only hope is to fire at the guys and pray he makes them break.

Quite agreed, SMS can be fired if an upgrade is bought that allows more than 1 weapon to be fired. Broadsides are especially nice for city fighting, the SMS that doesn't need LOS is quite nice...I digress.

Yes, units of Broadsides are quite useless in HTH, although a unit of 3, with Shield Drones and an Ethereal can hold it's own again non-assault troops, (like Guardsmen).

**Cheex**

Another interesting tidbit: if any model in a squad has to roll a difficult terrain test, then the whole unit is I1.

So never join a mega armoured Warboss to another unit unless they have S&P as well

**Steelmage99**

I once assaulted with a Broadside unit.....as it was the only way I could get close enough to the objective to contest it. Payed off too.

**Tri**

iamthecougar wrote:
Tri wrote:My so many units that have it and no P.Fist... but if I'm honest other then possibly Legion of the damned they've no place in close combat ... and spawn have no place in a chaos army.

Don't plaguebearers have snp and an upgrade for grenades? They really have no place anywhere but cc.
And on an interesting side note, it makes me laugh that chaos spawn are slow and purposeful yet still fleet of foot.

Yes they belong in CC but who cares there I2 any way. You're charged by IG you're going second

**iamthecougar**

Cheexsta wrote:Another interesting tidbit: if any model in a squad has to roll a difficult terrain test, then the whole unit is I1.

So never join a mega armoured Warboss to another unit unless they have S&P as well

Or stikkbomms they let them attack at normal initiative.

**Gwar!**

iamthecougar wrote:
Cheexsta wrote:Another interesting tidbit: if any model in a squad has to roll a difficult terrain test, then the whole unit is I1.

So never join a mega armoured Warboss to another unit unless they have S&P as well

Or stikkbomms they let them attack at normal initiative.

Which only helps if they assaulting guard. Hardly worth upping the cost of a Mob by 30 points to have an extra Power Claw in it and slow the unit down.

**Nurglitch**

Even better, Chaos Spawn are Slow and Purposeful Beasts, which means that they have Fleet and assault (2D6^1)x2

So they move (2D6^1) + run 1D6 + assault (2D6^1)x2

**Gwar!**

Nurglitch wrote:Even better, Chaos Spawn are Slow and Purposeful Beasts, which means that they have Fleet and assault (2D6^1)x2

So they move (2D6^1) + run 1D6 + assault (2D6^1)x2

So a range of 4" to 24". Wonderful

**Tri**

Gwar! wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:Even better, Chaos Spawn are Slow and Purposeful Beasts, which means that they have Fleet and assault (2D6^1)x2

So they move (2D6^1) + run 1D6 + assault (2D6^1)x2
So a range of 4" to 24". Wonderful

.... looking at it that's an average 14" .. guess I've been unfair to these guys they might actually be use able if GW hadn't costed them at 40pts

#chance 1, 4,10,20,35,56,80,104,125,140,146,140,125,104,80, 56 , 35, 20, 10 , 4 , 1
distance 4",5",6",7",8",9",10",11", 12",13", 14",15", 16",17",18",19",20",21",22",23",24"

more use full I guess is a chart that shows the chance of them assaulting a minimum of X"

#distance 4",----5",---6",--7",-------8",------9",-----10",---11",-----12",------13",-----14",----15",
chance% 100%,99.92%,99.61%,98.84%,97.3%,94.6%,90.28%,84.11%,76.09%,66.44%,55.64%,44.37%

#distance16",-----17",-----18",---19",----20",----21",----22",---23",--24"
chance% 33.57%,23.92%,15.9%,9.73%,5.41%,2.71%,1.17%,0.4%,0.08%

.... (notice there's a mistake in that some where .... but sod it is a spawn, its good enough)