Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

GBF originally brought this concept to my attention, the idea of certain characters effecting & improving entire legions of infantry, giving a much greater boost to the whole than they could ever achieve on thier own.

The four bubbles I have noticed in the guard dex, that could be used to excellent effect, are;

1) Lord Commissars - Leadership increasing goodness.

2) Strakken - Furious charge & counter attack USR

3) Regimental standard & voxes - Re-rolls on all morale & order tests (at the previously improved leadership)

4) Commander Chenkov - Stubborn, essentail in close-combat encounters.

Now the running total of the above is an additional 235pts & both HQ slots filled. It doesnt include the parent squads some of these options are upgrades for but as you would normally purchase those anyway - it shouldnt factor into the valuation of this combos benifits.

Id also like to note that the only infantry being use would be imperial guardsmen. No conscripts, lack of frag grenades is simply too important & no Ogryns as your already invested alot of points into stubborn & furious charge giving units. Priests will also probably be included, without upgrades, held at the back of really big squads. Lastly- Only assault weapons will be used & "Move, Move, Move!" will be used as much as possible. I think charging with these guardsmen to be much more effective than using rapid-3 lasguns & taking a charge (or more fire).

On a final note - Anti-tank will have to be included, in addition to the above combo - Although id like to point out that a massive amount of massed str 4 attacks (from FC or frag grenades) is a serious threat to all AV10 rear armor non-walker vehicles.

What do you think? Can this army combo be played @ 1500pts? What anti-armor options would best compliement this tactic?

Since the rumors came out, I've been a proponent of meltabombs for anti-tank in mobile squads. I think you give all the sergeants meltabombs as a widespread low-level AT threat for the whole army. They will also give you a shot against walkers in close combat. I don't like this idea, but if you're taking priests, what about chainfists (I can't remember what it's actually called)? You still hold the priests back from normal close combat, but against vehicles he gets rushed up to put in a few swipes. Three S7+2d6 attacks re-rolling misses will make most vehicles think twice.

The obvious primary weapon is meltaguns, as you can put a crudload of them in play, but you'll still be at the mercy of long-range artillery bombardment. Marbo or 5 man melta-stormtroopers might fulfill a very important role. In dealing with that problem.

A final thought, How much does a Commissar Lord + Chenkov cost? How much more useful would it be to simply take a Commissar for each blob? I think you get about 4 Commissars, and you probably don't have more than 4 blobs. If you're not going the blob route, I can see the necessity of the bubble instead, but I see Chenkov as the weak link in the army at that point. Straken and his squad can be very tough, Commissar Lords can move around, but Chenkov is stuck in a lame-o platoon command squad, and will be easy pickings once his chimera is gone. Once Stubborn is gone, you've basically got nothing keeping you in combat but a much smaller bubble from the Commissar Lord.

At 1500 I woud think that putting nearly 1/5 of your total points just on creating the bubble will not leave you enough to put inside that bubble. 1500 is such a lean list size that I would not ever recomend trying to run expensive specials

I think most people don't play 1500 and 1750 is a thing of the past with Dave Taylor taking the proverbial axe to the neck from G Dub.

G

I like the idea behind this... if feels like the massive push of bodies you read about in fluff so often involving battles with the IG. One of the Gaunts Ghosts novels paints a great picture of it (one of the later ones, I forget the name, the one when Caff and Tona's kid becomes a soldier).

At 1500pts though I agree 100% with what others are saying, I simply don't think there are enough points to fit the expensive specials and stuff into the list. You need to decide if Creed(furious charge with his order) or Straken (FC bubble) will be ideal and go with one of them in your CCS. After that I think blobs with normal Commisars (maybe with powerfists) and Priests (maybe with Eviscerators) is the way to go. I don't think you'll get more than 3 blobs at 1500pts though, especially not if you want points left to try and handle AT duty. Krak Grenades everywhere and meltabombs on everything that can take them might really provide enough of a blanket threat to armor at 1500pts, but I'm skeptical of that.

When I play 1850-2000 games, and running an infantry firebase, I often invest in some of these upgrades

Chenkov. He is amazing. Instead of purchasing a Commissar for each of your Infantry Platoons, you can simply place Chenkov in the center of your firebase and give every squad Stubborn. In addition, you do not need to blob the squads (obviously smart to blob them in KP missions) thus you can tarpit attackers and still shoot at the rest of his army with most of your firebase (like good ol' 4ed).

Standard. Essential for any Infantry firebase. Combined with Chenkov this effectively gives every squad w/ in 12" a Commissar (stubborn & reroll). This combo has proven extremely powerful. Where before a squad of Assault Terminators could pose a serious threat to my entire firebase, I laugh as they struggle to kill more than a couple squads

Straken. I only use him in 2k games, but he is one of the most enjoyable additions to a firebase Combined w/ CHenkov and CCS Stanard, your entire firebase is Stubborn, FA, CA, and reroll Honestly, if you haven't tried it, I highly suggest it SO FUN!!

I personally do not use the Commissar Lord as I don't run HWS.


PS. I also want to note that Chenkov also gives you 2 more 12" GBITF! orders. This is a great addition for your firebase, as you can GTG after being shot at, get a 3+ cover save, and then GBITF! and return fire. An order not to be underestimated for a firebase, and it frees up your CCS to order BID!.

The cost is only as much as two space marine special characters. I personally wouldnt call that prohibative, I think its simply because there seems to be alot of options & upgrades bought, its looks more than it is.

Also, this isnt one deathly bubble squad, the bubbles are located around a few key units. The Commissar Lord will be with a Infantry squad blob & the commanders in thier respective command squads.

As for eviserators - Im not sold. It a relatively expensive upgrade for a readily killable IC, they will serve more effectively at the back of the squad continually providing WS re-rolls.

Likewise, I dont think melta-bombs are the way to go. Krak grenades, OTOH, cover a whole squads worth of attacks. One attack with melta-damage vs 10 with krak damage, I'd go for the krak grenades every time. These formations shouldnt be taking on AV14 rear vehicles & special exceptions like soul crushers & Ironclads. To this I think 10pts for one squad, within a 5-strong infantry squad blob, equipped with krak grenades & leading the unit is the way to go.

Now for my second question;

Are power weapon upgrades for the sgts worth while? Heres my thoughts;

- They provide additional reliable kills against TEQ-MEQ types, which could otherwise shrug off massive amounts of standard attacks.

-Over 5sgts on a charge, they provide a worthy amount of attacks.

-Untargetable, as they are part of a unit rather than an IC.

(Cons)

- Can be expensive.

Does the above justify the cost?

If you are going to run Straken then the units you use to force bubble should have frag grenades so if you have to charge into cover you will still benefit from I4. Your guardsmen are basically Space Marines the turn you charge... It can make a huge difference, especially if you multi charge with several units. FC is that extra oomph you need that could swing a game. Personally I would take Straken over Cheknov as the boost in your assault phase will make your army more robust overall.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:If you are going to run Straken then the units you use to force bubble should have frag grenades so if you have to charge into cover you will still benefit from I4. Your guardsmen are basically Space Marines the turn you charge... It can make a huge difference, especially if you multi charge with several units. FC is that extra oomph you need that could swing a game. Personally I would take Straken over Cheknov as the boost in your assault phase will make your army more robust overall.

G

You can take & easily field both.

Strakken is the commander of a Company Command squad

Chenkov is the commander of a Platoon command squad.

Agreed, frag grenades are essential. While charging in as space marines may not sound that amazing, doing it with models that cost roughly 10pts/model & have a re-roll to weapon skill (included) and are stubborn (again, included in the 10pt/model estimate) is really quite powerful.

Fortunately all basic Guardsmen come with frag grenades. I'll be honest, when the rumor came out that they would be standard kit for Guardsmen, I liked it just from a modeling standpoint, I wouldn't have to keep explaining to my opponents that I don't actually have grenades, I just modeled them. It is a curious surprise that I'm actually considering them to be a real upgrade in some armies.

Here's a question: Do Frag, Krak, or Meltabombs get +1 S for Furious Charge? I don't have my rule book on hand for a RAW lookup, although I could see a lot of people having "fluff" problems with it (I don't).

Biophysic wrote:Fortunately all basic Guardsmen come with frag grenades. I'll be honest, when the rumor came out that they would be standard kit for Guardsmen, I liked it just from a modeling standpoint, I wouldn't have to keep explaining to my opponents that I don't actually have grenades, I just modeled them. It is a curious surprise that I'm actually considering them to be a real upgrade in some armies.

Here's a question: Do Frag, Krak, or Meltabombs get +1 S for Furious Charge? I don't have my rule book on hand for a RAW lookup, although I could see a lot of people having "fluff" problems with it (I don't).

Hmm... that's a good question

The way I read it, the grenades would NOT benefit from Furious Charge. Grenades do not change the Strength of the model, instead they simply roll (lets use frags) 4+D6 for armor pen.

Yeah, grenades are a fixed strength weapon, unmodified by anything that effects strength in close combat.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I think most people don't play 1500 and 1750 is a thing of the past with Dave Taylor taking the proverbial axe to the neck from G Dub.

G

My local club still plays 1500 points as the main game type. heck i dont think Ive played a game over 1500 points in the last month.

Frag grenades are good for charging guardsmen whom dont have furious charge.

Krak grenades are brillaint for guardsmen charging whom do have furious charge - as such weaponary would be directed at walkers & most walkers fight at about I4, so that +1I does indeed help.

In terms of bubblyness, do you measure the bubble measurement from the character or the characters unit?

For those of you that have used Chenkov, a question:

Do you have trouble keeping him alive? I see it easier to keep the Command Squad upgrade characters alive, as they can get Bodyguards, Medics, and Camo. If I am remembering correctly, Platoon Command Squads only get Medics. A Chimera helps, but if you're taking all infantry, it can't really be expected to last that long.

Biophysic wrote:For those of you that have used Chenkov, a question:

Do you have trouble keeping him alive? I see it easier to keep the Command Squad upgrade characters alive, as they can get Bodyguards, Medics, and Camo. If I am remembering correctly, Platoon Command Squads only get Medics. A Chimera helps, but if you're taking all infantry, it can't really be expected to last that long.

Just buy a Chimera for his squad, throw some flamers in it, keep him behind your firebase and use him as a counter attack unit. In all the games that I have taken Chenkov, I have never had him die.