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If a model is on a cavalry model then would it be able to be picked out for shooting if it were part of a regular squad? here's the example: a chaos lord mounted on a juggernaut of Khorn is attached to a squad of plague marines, can a squad pick out the lord individually in the shooting phase?

No, that rule only applies to MCs no matter how stupid it sounds. ICs and shooting at them, page 49, BRB.

edit: note that I lack the CSM codex so I can't check if the Juggernaut has any special rules on the subject

It has no special rules, it is simply a mount that does not make the character a MC in anyway shape or form.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It has no special rules, it is simply a mount that does not make the character a MC in anyway shape or form.

Indeed, as such he cannot be picked out.

Whats with the MC talk, you can't pick out MCs either.

coredump wrote:Whats with the MC talk, you can't pick out MCs either.

Very true, Bit of rules muddling there . However, I do not recall ever seeing an MC with the Independent Character Special Rule.

A quick gander at my Eldar, Tyranid and Chaos Marine/Daemon Codex reinforces that (Apologies if I have missed any).

Because no MC's* currently have the IC rule, they can never join a Unit anyway, and as such can always be shot at separately, hence the belief that MC's can be picked out.


*That I know of

Gwar! wrote:
*That I know of

How unlike you....

colonel584 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:*That I know of

How unlike you....

Just covering all my bases as I have better things to do at the moment than trawl through all of my 3rd, 4th and 5th edition codexes and Rulebooks.

If someone knows of a Monstrous Creature with the IC rule, let me know. At First I thought Karamazov from Codex: Witchhunters might be but he has a special rule regarding how to deal with his retinue so it is not an issue.

Gwar! wrote:

colonel584 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:*That I know of

How unlike you....

Just covering all my bases as I have better things to do at the moment than trawl through all of my 3rd, 4th and 5th edition codexes and Rulebooks.

If someone knows of a Monstrous Creature with the IC rule, let me know. At First I thought Karamazov from Codex: Witchhunters might be but he has a special rule regarding how to deal with his retinue so it is not an issue.

Could a daemon prince be one of them? CSM codex of course. Both C'tans are ICs at least.

Zaephyr wrote:Could a daemon prince be one of them? CSM codex of course. Both C'tans are ICs at least.

Nope, neither C'tan have the Independent Character rule, and both have a Rule that prevents them from joining another unit anyway. Shush I'm drunk.

Daemon Princes of both Flavour (Daemons/Marines) do not have the IC rule either.

Actually C'Tan do have IC status, and rules that make it entirely irrelevant.

kirsanth wrote:Actually C'Tan do have IC status, and rules that make it entirely irrelevant.

I have a horrible feeling this is my First Print run Codex being a bitch again, but I only see the "Character" Special Rule, not the Independent Character Special Rule for both of them. They do have "Above All Others" which means they cannot join anyway however MOAR RUM PLOX!

It's in the rules for "Character" as you said, for each of them.

At least in this codex.

Gwar! wrote:

kirsanth wrote:Actually C'Tan do have IC status, and rules that make it entirely irrelevant.

I have a horrible feeling this is my First Print run Codex being a bitch again, but I only see the "Character" Special Rule, not the Independent Character Special Rule for both of them. They do have "Above All Others" which means they cannot join anyway however

My friend's codex states:

Character: A C'tan is an Independent Character and follows all the rules for characters given in the Warhammer 40000 rulebook, modified by the "above all others"...

kirsanth wrote:It's in the rules for "Character" as you said, for each of them.

At least in this codex.

Yup, you are right. Rum Goggles blurred the Independent from the rules text

So yeah, C'Tan are MC's with the IC rules, but cannot join units ANYWAY because of another special rule, further reinforcing the notion that MC's can be "Picked out"

And seriously how hard would it have been to just call the special rule "Independent Character"

Gwar! wrote:

kirsanth wrote:It's in the rules for "Character" as you said, for each of them.

At least in this codex.

Yup, you are right. Rum Goggles blurred the Independent from the rules text

So yeah, C'Tan are MC's with the IC rules, but cannot join units ANYWAY because of another special rule, further reinforcing the notion that MC's can be "Picked out"

And seriously how hard would it have been to just call the special rule "Independent Character"

Yeah, it is widely known that GW leaves many difficult things unclear but clarifies simple things too much.

A Hive tyrant is not an IC, but it can 'join' with tyrant guards.


IIRC there was a rule in 4E that MCs could be picked out even if part of a unit; which is why the Shieldwall rule exists.

coredump wrote:A Hive tyrant is not an IC, but it can 'join' with tyrant guards.


IIRC there was a rule in 4E that MCs could be picked out even if part of a unit; which is why the Shieldwall rule exists.

Funny you should mention that, I was just looking at my 4th ed book for that reason lol.

Turns out, there wasn't any such rule in 4th ed At least not in the MC rules on Page 55. There were rules regarding them for TP tests, but I cannot see anything that would let them be picked out. I think I must be missing something because the Tyranid Codex is pretty explicit in the Shield Wall Rule that they can be.

Shoot the big ones.

Main rules, iirc

kirsanth wrote:Shoot the big ones.

Main rules, iirc

That was in the 3rd edition Tyranid Codex.

hmm.

I never played 3rd. I remember something of the sort, but I started in 4 and promptly tried to forget it and move on with 5e.

I believe it is in the targeting rules. Priority rules can be ignore when choosing vehicles and MC.

kirsanth wrote:hmm.

I never played 3rd. I remember something of the sort, but I started in 4 and promptly tried to forget it and move on with 5e.

I believe it is in the targeting rules. Priority rules can be ignore when choosing vehicles and MC.

Aye its in the targeting rules. it says you can shoot at it regardless of closer units, but nothing about picking it out if it is joined with a squad. Unless the Shieldwall rule means that you cannot ignore Target priority and instead test as if it were a normal unit.... It is a 4th edition codex after all

Well, that is the issue. How can you pick that unit to hit?

the way the ruleitself works has changed. But the ideal is the same. It is one of the few relics that works - almost better.

kirsanth wrote:Well, that is the issue. How can you pick that unit to hit?

the way the ruleitself works has changed. But the ideal is the same. It is one of the few relics that works - almost better.

True, it does seem a little redundant now though, as there are no rules to pick out MC's joined to a unit (there are no MC's that can even join a unit anyway). The only thing it does is give the Hive Tyrant a retinue, which means he would not be able to be picked out anyway...

Gah my brain hurts.

I am assuming the rule is there because the HT is not an IC and as such could not technically have a retinue and so could be picked out even if he brought some Guard along. Or something.

Well, it used to ignore priority rules.
Remember those? hehe spore mines FTW!!!

Now it circumvents most cover save rules.

Either way I agree with the last part!

cheers

From what I gather you cant target a monstrous creature that has is in a unit. The Necron Tomb Spyder is the best example, as it can spawn a Scarab Swarm which then joins with it and they become the same unit. it works in the same way as any others, the TS isnt an independant caracter, however that shouldnt too much of an effect (if any) on the way it works.

Blackeagle wrote:From what I gather you cant target a monstrous creature that has is in a unit. The Necron Tomb Spyder is the best example, as it can spawn a Scarab Swarm which then joins with it and they become the same unit. it works in the same way as any others, the TS isnt an independant caracter, however that shouldnt too much of an effect (if any) on the way it works.

Correct. The TS is a MC, it creates a Scarab base that forms a unit with it, because the Artificer rule says so. It still is not an IC, so cannot joi other units. Once the Scarabs are formed, you have to fire at the unit, you cannot just fire at the TS. A interesting side effect is that even though it is not a retinue, if you charge the unit of the TS and Scarabs, you cannot pick out the TS as it is not an Independent character.