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With a ton of new options it's certainly possible to do decent chaos-IG army with the new codex just by choosing certain units and discarding others.

By taking lots of psychic choruses, penal legions (mutants) and vets a player can have a pretty well-themed army without needing any special rules. Commissars can function as heretic enforcers, maybe Iron Hand as a chaos space marine,

But for a more advanced take I want to offer this framework. It used the advesary rules from the Witch Hunter book, the old L&D list, CSMs and existing IG units.

BANNED
All special characters
Company Command Squad (they were purged in the revolution)
Commissars (purged)
Priest (replaced with heretics)
Storm Troops (too loyal, equipment too hard to keep up)
Platoons (too orderly for chaos)
Valkyries (too much upkeep)
Hydra, Manticore, Deathstrike (same)

HQ
Primaris Psyker (maybe replace with an even more powerful version?)
Techpriests
Arch heretic (lousy in a fight but bestows fearless)
Chaos Space Marine Lord

Elite
Ogryn
Ratlings
Psyker Battle Squad
Daemons (generic daemons but with option of marks)
1-5 heretic leaders (bestow stubborn)

Troops
Cultists (Conscripts but without a platoon, can swap lasguns for pistol/CC and 1 democharge per squad)
Vets (the loyal chaos cultist who can actually fight)
Mutants
Zombies (cannot score)

Transports
Trucks (ork truck profile)
Chimera

Fast Attack
Scout Sentinels
Armored Sentinels
Rough Riders
Hellhounds and variants

Heavy
Lemans Russ (allow variants?)
Ordinance Battery
Defiler
Heavy weapon platoon

Add: Mantis light tank (FA)
Heavy Support: Add spawn and Big Mutants

Notes:
*Vets have same options as codex
*Would not permit variants on Lemans-cite upkeep as well. This should be some delination between it and the G codex
*Would not have permitted variants hellhounds-same reason
*Ordinance batteries: prohibit deathstrikes-same reason.

It's also about what they can get their hands on ammunition for. The LRMBT & Exterminator all use very common ammo, the rest don't really.

I'd actualy have allowed the Hydra, there's a number of stories about traitors trying to prevent Imperial landings with stolen hydras. (and failing, but that's another issue)

I'd consider restricting the Artillery to Basalisk and Griffin, as these are by far the most common.

I'd allow the Banewolf, as it sounds wonderfuly Nuglesk to me.

I'd add the ability to take a regular infantry squad, so there's something between cultests and Vets.

If you wanted to keep some of the more difficult vehicles avaliable, you could tie them to the 'Dark Techpriest', reqiring him to be in the army to field them.

I'd also consider adding 'Technicals' to the fast attack list, (use ork warbuggy/wartrakk profile) They're very common such rable armies.

Drop the Ratlings, I don't really see them being tolerated or able to hold their nerve off duty.
I second the inclusion of a Dark Mechanicus (maybe as an HQ) that would allow for a rare vehicle selection.
Also perhaps the inclusion of Two handed (ie +2 Str) close combat weapons for the Vets as a cheap 'special' weapon.
The Chaos Marine Lord should be a CSM Vet or CSM Vet Sorcerer, anything more would just be degrading for the poor chap.

Primaris Psyker / Unbound Psyker - go nuts with this guy, so far in the printed lists there isn't any psykers that reflect what happens when abilities are not controlled. I can see give this guy a laundry list of purchased abilities, but make him squishy. It is still mostly human after all. A Catalyst style power may work well, or something that can have an AP3 effect at the cost of models in the unit it's attached to.

Perhaps make a rule that if it is led by a chaos marine champion then they can take marines for elites. If lead by an arch heretic they can take greater and lesser daemons. Just a small suggestion, I really like what you did with the codex. It’s just a shame GWS won’t take a page or two out of a WD and do something like this for the old LatD players.

Having zombies not count as scoring units would really hurt my old zombie LatD army, but I can’t argue with the logic behind the decision. Perhaps if led by a Primaris Psyker / Unbound Psyker zombies can count as scoring units.

Glad so many people like it, thanks for the feedback, here's a revised proposal:

BANNED
All special characters
Company Command Squad (they were purged in the revolution)
Commissars (purged)
Priest (replaced with heretics)
Storm Troops (too loyal, equipment too hard to keep up)
Platoons (too orderly for chaos)
Valkyries (too much upkeep)
Armored Sentinels (same)
Hydra, Manticore, Deathstrike (same)

HQ
Psyker (more powerful than the sanctioned, still fragile)
Techpriests (needed for IG tank variants)
Arch heretic (lousy in a fight but bestows fearless, unlocks cultists)
Chaos Space Marine Lord (unlocks CSM)

Elite
Ogryn (aka Big Mutants)
Ratlings (not Hobbits but some feral sewer mutants)
Psyker Battle Squad
Daemons (generic daemons but with option of marks)
1-5 heretic leaders (bestow stubborn)
Chaos Space Marine Chosen (requires CSM lord)

Troops
Cultists (Conscripts but without a platoon, can swap lasguns for pistol/CC and 1 democharge per squad)
Vets (the loyal chaos cultist who can actually fight, same options as IG but may also take evicerators)
Mutants
Zombies (cannot score)
2-5 Infantry Squads (as IG platoons but no officers or other units, can blob)

Transports
Trucks (ork truck profile)
Chimera

Fast Attack
Scout Sentinels
Rough Riders
Hellhounds (variants require tech priest)
Buggy (as ork buggy but BS3)

Heavy
Lemans Russ MBT or Exterminator (punisher with tech priest)
Ordinance Battery Griffin or Basilisk
Defiler (requires tech priest)

Demons should use Chaos Marine rules for deployment including summoning icons.

All the Gaunts Ghost Guys will demand you have stalk tanks/mantis tanks. Something akin to chimera stats with potentially an autocannon option (I think).

Can we make the Defiler a Soulgrinder just because the stats are better and the model is jiggy

Looks great. Lets recycle some fluff and old GW picts and viola - new codex!

I don't see why these couldn't be allowed unless you are just gonna run something that seems like pure cultist stuff;

Platoons; there are stories of organized Chaos military groups like the Blood Pact and the guys from Traitor General.

Commissars; could be used as enforcers of the will of Chaos

Storm Troops; again they'd be elite Chaos warriors either converted from Guard or trained.

If you are going for a more cultist based thing, I understand where you are coming from, but for traitor guard? Just use a little imagination on some of the things.

I will admit I never saw the LatD rules...

Well the squads are there for standard troops.

Vets are available with traits. Normal troop squads are available. That means grenadiers. That means Blood Pact/Sons of Sek.

I think KK is going for a less formal structure befitting, well chaos. In the Ghosts books Chaos admires (or at least Sek) the order and discipline of the guard.

You need to include human bombs, captives or guardsmen who refused to turn and are strapped to a bunch of explosives and forced towards enemy lines.

An unbound daemonhost as a hq would be great, the preacher, governor, inquisitor etc who initialised the uprising now revealed in its malevolent glory (not a GD but a warped once-man thing with various gribbly rewards and mutations a'la Dark Heresy.

Reduce tanks and armour to bare minimum choices, this represents the limits of local resource, the vast range represents the infinate availability and size of the impG.

Zombies should be only available to a cult with a HQ with mark of nurgle or something, slaanesh zombies don't seem right imo.

0-1 mob = Local citizenry fanatically loyal to the cult, whipped into a frenzy by the zealots and turned loose on the battlefield (basically a grot mob with handler but immune to psychology excellent tarpit of rubbish troopers).

fast attack choice = ghouls, depraved and lowly animalistic mutants, fleet, basically scaled down stealer/hrmgaunt stat, used for outflanking and infiltrating mebbe.

So L&tD would be: Like ImpG but without the Armoured powa but increased aggressive infantry, whilst ImpG is more suited to defensive play, L&tD is more suited to mobs charging across the battlefield, lowly scum seeking to call the attention of ancient powers with acts of sadism and malevolence.

Cheese Elemental wrote:You need to include human bombs, captives or guardsmen who refused to turn and are strapped to a bunch of explosives and forced towards enemy lines.

There really is no limit to the diversity of units that would be fluffy to incorporate into such a chaos warband; Obliterators, spawn, warhounds, greater daemons, etc. I really like that the commander dictates the type of troops, maybe that could be explored some more.

I use witch hunter frantics in my EC for friendly games and Apocalypse. Their “bring on the pain” rule really fits with the EC and chaos in general - plus they get mob weapons with the option of taking evicerators and their mini flamers. Maybe add them as a unit of more veteran cultist or just outright replace the conscripts with them.

Back in 3rd edition you could play chaos marines without a single marine. I used a Slannesh cultist and daemon army. When LatD came out a played a large zombie horde army lead by a rouge pysker with the undead manning my basilisks. I have a running history with GWS taking away my armies just look at my sig.

I actually plan on putting a Deathstrike into my Traitor Guard. But rather than a missile on a firing platform, it'll be a giant conglomeration of pskyers wired into a machine of some kind - for those of you who waded through BftA, think the psychic mines.

Basically, the psychic energy gets discharged, but is a tad unpredictable...

Nice... I like it but my few additions/changes:

Mutants, I think should be a unit similar to Penal Legion, but with a higher max model count.

For the infantry squad, I think its appropriate that there isn't a command squad, but I believe it would also be appropriate to have some model representing the guy bossing around the blob of troops. Maybe a one sgt equivalent per platoon maybe upgraded sort of thing...

Veterans, I think they should be able to choose some chaos slanted mission profiles. Some ideas: Saboteurs something similar to the old Cultists from the previous Chaos Codex or maybe affecting reserve rolls and Blood Pact, carapace armor and some other equipment (help make up for a lack of ST).

I think some of the vehicles should have some Chaos-y variants to them. Something as simple as giving the sentinel or some new Leman Russ variants a "Reaper Autocannon" or two. Earlier this week there was a proposed rule for a chemical weapon round for artillery, that struck me as having the potential for getting a chaos slant.

Vassakov wrote:I actually plan on putting a Deathstrike into my Traitor Guard. But rather than a missile on a firing platform, it'll be a giant conglomeration of pskyers wired into a machine of some kind - for those of you who waded through BftA, think the psychic mines. Basically, the psychic energy gets discharged, but is a tad unpredictable...

What no dark mechanicus cultists worshiping an atom bomb?

Attempt 3...

After much thought I'm cutting out CSMs. If the IG can't take loyal marines then the traitors should not get Chaos marines. I know they were part of the original list but I think that was more GW laziness than CSMs being essential.

BANNED
All special characters
Company Command Squad (they were purged in the revolution)
Commissars (purged)
Priest (replaced with heretics)
Storm Troops (too loyal, equipment too hard to keep up)
Platoons (too orderly for chaos)
Valkyries (too much upkeep)
Armored Sentinels (same)
Hydra, Manticore, Deathstrike (same)

HQ
Psyker (more powerful than the sanctioned, still fragile)
Techpriests
Arch heretic (lousy in a fight but bestows fearless, unlocks cultists)
Summoned greater daemon (generic but can take marks and buy wings)
1-5 heretic leaders (bestow stubborn)

Elite
Ogryn (aka Big Mutants)
Ratlings (not Hobbits but some feral sewer mutants)
Psyker Battle Squad
Daemons (generic daemons but with option of marks)
Cultist terror squad (infiltrate, outflank, demo charges, flamers, fearless)


Troops
Cultists (Conscripts but without a platoon, can swap lasguns for pistol/CC and 1 democharge per squad)
Vets (the loyal chaos cultist who can actually fight, same options as IG but may also take evicerators)
Mutants
Zombies (cannot score)
2-5 Infantry Squads (as IG platoons but no officers or other units, can blob)

Transports
Trucks (ork truck profile)
Chimera

Fast Attack
Scout Sentinels
Rough Riders
Hellhounds (variants require tech priest)
Buggy (as ork buggy but BS3)

Heavy
Lemans Russ MBT or Exterminator (punisher with tech priest)
Ordinance Battery Griffin or Basilisk
Defiler (requires tech priest)

I like what you've done here!

One final Q. On the vets with option for chainsaws. Do you mean to have all of them with chainsaws, some sort of sergeant option, or what?

Frazzled wrote:I like what you've done here!

One final Q. On the vets with option for chainsaws. Do you mean to have all of them with chainsaws, some sort of sergeant option, or what?

It would be a special weapon pick like a flamer or plasma gun.

I like the sound of the Cultist Terror Squad... too bad you can't call them Terrorists for short.

Kid_Kyoto I love this! My LatD are beckoning.

I know you want to keep IG special characters out, but have you thought about making some LatD special characters. Someone like the guy running around during the Eye of Terror, Cypher, or some guys to inject some chaos god specific love into the list?

Ohh didn't see the terror squad. Thats looks juicy.

yes we need special characters.
My votes:

*Colonel Zigmar (the smelly) Arch priest of nurgle.
*Renegade lord Bosco, the the Duke'OHazzard
*techpriest Bob the Mechanator, heretic Mechanum from Krieg

OK take 5...

I just read Traitor General which is probably the best take on how a chaos society operates that we will ever get.

As I go farther and farther and from the IG codex I'm cutting out BS3 squads entirely. In a chaos army either you're cannon fodder who can't shoot straight or you're a survivor who's committed unspeakable acts for chaos. No middle. Vehicles will stay BS3 though, so will heavy weapon squads.


BANNED
All IG special characters (L&D will get their own)
Company Command Squad (they were purged in the revolution)
Commissars (purged)
Priest (replaced with heretics)
Storm Troops (too loyal, equipment too hard to keep up)
Platoons (too orderly for chaos)
Valkyries (too much upkeep)
Sentinels (same)
Hydra, Manticore, Deathstrike (same)

HQ
Psyker (more powerful than the sanctioned, still fragile)
Fallen Techpriests
Arch heretic (lousey in a fight but bestows fearless) & retinue (chaos vets with full wargear options including special weapons, power weapons and evicerators)
Summoned greater daemon (generic but can take marks and buy wings)
1-5 heretics (must be assigned to sqauds, bestow stubborn, shoot a model to get a morale re-roll)

Elite
Ogryn (aka Big Mutants, can take heavy flamers as upgrades)
Psyker Battle Squad
Daemons (generic daemons but with option of marks)
Cultist terror squad (BS4, infiltrate, outflank, demo charges, flamers, sniper rifles, fearless)

Troops
Cultists (Conscripts but without a platoon, can swap lasguns for pistol/CC and 1 democharge per squad)
0-3 Vets (the loyal chaos warriors who can actually fight, 1 heavy, up to 3 specials, same options as IG vets plus evicerators or heavy stubbers, 1 per squad of cultists)
Mutants (ork profiles, optional +1S, +1T, 5+ invulnerable or +1I and Furious charge)
Zombies (cannot score)

Transports
Trucks (ork truck profile)
Chimera

Fast Attack
Rough Riders
Hellhounds (variants require tech priest)
Buggy (as ork buggy but BS3)
Stalk tanks (defiler chasis, no deamonic rules, no battle cannon, just TL autocannon and some defensive weapons)

Heavy
Lemans Russ MBT or Exterminator
Ordinance Battery Griffin or Basilisk
Defiler
1-5 Heavy weapon squads (BS3)

I think you've got it! I thought about trying to shoehorn my LantD minis into an Imperial Guard format, but the Plague Zombies were the sticking point because they have no shooting weapons. I'm gonna try this out at my FLGS Monday and see how it goes. Just two questions, how many troopers in mutant units and what powers should the traitor psyker have. I suggest giving him all the powers from the space marines codex, with different names, and somehow making the penalties for failing a Perils of the Warp test disastrous. Maybe something like the list in the Warhammer Fantasy Battles rules. (I'm not sure if it's in the main rules or the Orcs and Goblins army book.)

Great idea Kyoto. I've been dreaming of doing a latd army for years but have been delayed by $$ and by the lack of a really good way to make it fit into the "official" codexes.

One thing that needs to be asked is what play style the army should have, and how will it be different from the other dexes and yet still be balanced. Right now, it looks kind of like a mix between speed freaks & guard. That could be very potent. Having good heavy support shooting along with decent CC in daemons, ogryns, and mutants could potentially be overpowering. Playtesting is definitely in order.

As for special characters, why not pull some from the Gaunts Ghosts books or the eye of terror literature.


SteveW

LOVE IT. i'd argue to keep in the CSMs and a CSM lord, because they're supposed to be abadons imperial army, but it looks great otherwise. i'd just add in alot more units.

Well my books are now on a boat and forgot to scan the relevent pages...

For mutants I would just use the rules from L&D or Witch Hunters, they seemed decent enough.

For psykers the WH had some neat powers and rules.

I like what you have done here,I'll be watching this thread for more developments,very cool ideas thus far.

Time to build that LaTD army of mine now!

Thanks Kyoto for this. I will soon have my own LaTD army up and running and kicking some Tau butt! lol, inside joke

okay, back to being serious. Why not CSM? They could be decent sergeants or something, or even elite choices. I don't mean the major butt-kickin' CSM, just the normal units or the gods-variants (plagues, noise, etc.)

My favorite part is the addition of the the Buggies and trucks, 'Technicals' as you should put it to match modern Human terminology. I can totally see all the pickup trucks with heavy stubbers zooming around with all the mutants and cultists. Great Idea!

With a name like "Stalk Tank" would their be any rules as far "stalking" an enemy. Being a fast attack choice you'd think it should have some rule that would improve its movement relative to a basic walker. Scout or Deepstrike... ignore terrain... I don't know.