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All races have their disadvantages and aadvantages. They all sacrifice one stat for another. Eldar have low Strength and Toghness but good initiative.
Orks have high toughness and weapon skill and attacks but low armour save. If you have better stats (space marines), you simply cost more. The problem is that Eldar get destroyed by Orks and anything else with low initiative, especially powerfist/klaw guys.

This is hard to explain to my friends but Ill try to say what I mean. A powerklaw nob always strikes at I-1. Eldar (based on their high initiative) usually always strike first. Because they strike first, they sacrifice their other stats. BUT, the pk nob already strikes last! This means that the Eldar player gets ABSOLUTELY NO bonus and only gets the disadvantage of low toughness and strength. Other low Initiative guys are in the shoes of the nob aswell.

Do you guys agree with this statement?

You question makes no sense, so I will answer it the best I can...

No

I believe that what you are trying to convey is that troops with power fists etc who strike at initiative 1 don't care what the opponents initiative is as they will strike last anyway. This small part of your statement is correct, though it does not mean the Eldar are disadvantaged. I see where you are coming from but it is irrelevant the Eldar's high initiative isn't 'wasted', as they still strike first.

Eldar also have a disadvantage when they use Power claws, which strike at I 1.

They suffer more from one Scorpion costing as much as three boyz, while only killing one per cc phase.

I use Orks. My point is that Imperial Guard (for example) get the same Initiative bonus but do not suffer on other stats (they're not that great but thats 'cause they're 6 pts). So do Space Marines. In fact, just about everyone strikes before a basic boy but Eldar lose on OTHER stats aswell. All other races either cost less (because they suck overall) or cost more (because they're better overall) but still get that bonus.

So I dont want people saying "Space Marines cost 16pts but Dire Avengers only cost 12!!! Thats the only reason space marines dont suffer on other stats!"

btw, Foldalot, you're pretty much right on that first bit about what Im conveying here.

Stormboy,

I also understand what you are trying to convey but I must disagree. 40K isn't that cut and dry IMO with stat lines balancing the game out. Yes eldar are now overpriced with the general point reductions in 5th ed but that will get taken care of eventually.

My point is why one earth would an eldar player want to get into combat with that many boyz? It just doesn't seem like a good strategy. The eldar are an unforgiving army, every tactical error is repaid to you with interest. Someone who tries to charge a small unit of scorps (for example) into a large unit of boyz is foolish. The eldar have many other great tools to deal with these masses of cc troops, like warwalkers and dire avengers. An eldar play must maximize each assault, like charging scorps into lootas or something that has another battlefield role that will disrupt your playing. Also eldar units work in harmony with one another to become more effective. A far seer with guide and and doom will aid that eldar player into turning a large unit of boyz into mush.

Since this is the tactics forum I thought I'd mention that playing to the strengths of your opponent isn't for the best.

Also in direct response to your question, if my models strike first reroll wounds (ALA Doom) and cause enough wounds to force you to allocate some to that nob with the PK who is then killed because he can't make his save makes his low I value worthless right? I think overall your question/statement really depends on the tactical situation of each individual game you are playing.

If you're only killing one Ork boy per Striking Scorpion each assault phase, then you're doing it wrong. Or maybe you should consider executing your dice and procuring new ones.

Nurglitch wrote:If you're only killing one Ork boy per Striking Scorpion each assault phase, then you're doing it wrong. Or maybe you should consider executing your dice and procuring new ones.

Actually, Striking Scorpions average less than 1 Boy kill every close combat phase. They have 3 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, save 6+. This means 0,2777 kills for every attack, which comes out to 0,8331 kills per Striking Scorpion. Only when the Striking Scorpions get the charge will they kill more than one Ork on average (0,2777*4 = 1,111).

When do the dice in any actual game come within even two standard deviations of the average? Not very often at all.

You're better off calculating the probability of potential wounds being caused by the number of potential attacks, remembering to include the Exarch, any Doom psychic power that is in effect, and any other scenario sensitive information. That way you don't draw the wrong conclusion when your Striking Scorpions don't roll the perfect average and your opponent is reduced to cutting Ork models into bits to get the exact 0.277777~ wounds off the table.

Where that higher initiative shines though is when you whittle a squad down, when the enemy can't drown you in attacks and don't have a lot of bodies to soak up those higher initiative attacks coming at them they will do better by comparison. Going back to dumplingman's point that if you can force enough wounds with the help of doom and/or guide then you can try to force the issue of the character in the squad - in this case a Nob with a PK - having to make saves.
Also try to realize that the Powerklaw has a trade off to it, you lose the ability to strike at initiative when taking it. The nob isn't initiative 1 to start with you take the weapon -which yes it is a great weapon - to double the Nob's strength which can cause ID, normally will wound on 2+ and can potentially damage any vehicle. But even though the Nob didn't have great initiative to begin with its not like he will always go last against everyone with his stock kit.

Nurglitch wrote:When do the dice in any actual game come within even two standard deviations of the average?

About 94% of the time.

You're better off calculating the probability of potential wounds being caused by the number of potential attacks, remembering to include the Exarch, any Doom psychic power that is in effect, and any other scenario sensitive information. That way you don't draw the wrong conclusion when your Striking Scorpions don't roll the perfect average and your opponent is reduced to cutting Ork models into bits to get the exact 0.277777~ wounds off the table.

How does creating a biased model to show potential of unrealistic results allow us to draw more accurate conclusions?

Volkan wrote:Where that higher initiative shines though is when you whittle a squad down, when the enemy can't drown you in attacks and don't have a lot of bodies to soak up those higher initiative attacks coming at them they will do better by comparison. Going back to dumplingman's point that if you can force enough wounds with the help of doom and/or guide then you can try to force the issue of the character in the squad - in this case a Nob with a PK - having to make saves.
Also try to realize that the Powerklaw has a trade off to it, you lose the ability to strike at initiative when taking it. The nob isn't initiative 1 to start with you take the weapon -which yes it is a great weapon - to double the Nob's strength which can cause ID, normally will wound on 2+ and can potentially damage any vehicle. But even though the Nob didn't have great initiative to begin with its not like he will always go last against everyone with his stock kit.

On the charge a nob hits at the same time as a space marine without a klaw, and with a klaw he costs 41 points i think that the point cost is compensation enough for the klaw attacks.

I think the OP has something a valid point.

However, eldar also have a comparable advantage whenever they're up against opponents that have a high initiative that still doesn't beat theirs. In that case, it's their opponent that has the wasted stat. Those mid-level initiative units also strike before orks, even though they don't pay as much to do so as the eldar, so they have a comparable advantage there.

It's a rock-paper-scissors thing, where you want your initiative to be one point higher than your enemy's, so you strike first without wasting a high stat. (This is assuming fine-tuned points costs, of course, so it might not always reflect reality.)

You have to look at this type of anaylsis on a game basis not unit versus unit. Mechdar can evade orks quite well and still lay down a lot of fire power. If I was playing eldar versus orks I would try to kill the entire army with shooting if possible.

G

Stormboy65 wrote:All races have their disadvantages and aadvantages.

I disagree with your crazy-ass statement, except for the above.

There are two [sics] in this post.

Blackmoor wrote:You question makes no sense, so I will answer it the best I can...

No

Undeniable wisdom!

Interesting point, and I get what you mean. If, after the Eldar have come in and done their hitting, there is a powerfist left, they get hit.

Very true.

then again, so does every other race, who fails to take out the entire unit with their attacks first, as everyone is sitting there facing some serious Powerfisting. In many instances, i would rather hit first and reduce the total attacks Im going to suffer next, than hit a bit harder, but hit second.

sourclams wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:When do the dice in any actual game come within even two standard deviations of the average?

About 94% of the time.

Oh god, touche!

The thing that irks me with example is that we can not compare a Dire avenger with a Space Marine in one rather specific combat situation and start calling Dire avengers over priced or disadvantaged as these units are meant for different things, its apples and oranges . And by the way the space marines toughness of 4 means jack all in this match up as the Power fist/klaw will be wounding on 2's and most likely dealing instant death too (not in strength 3 cases).

Stormboy, are you actually complaining that when eldar, an elite army, gets into assault with orks, arguably an assault based army, that they lose the combat against a large squad? Im sure the tau player who I regularly play against gets angry when I charge his firewarriors with a Kan and eats them for breakfast, but he is mad because he didnt shoot it to death before it got there, not that he cant hurt it in combat (at least thats what I think, but who knows).

Yes, it does suck for eldar that even though their I is 3 higher than orks on the charge they still statistically get beaten in combat. If you know you are going to get outclassed in combat (your skills will not lead you to easily overcome the opposition), do not get charged by that unit unless you have some synergy or stat bonus that will allow you to win that combat- like using Mindwar to kill the Klaw wielding nob, fortune your unit or doom that unit. Ive had eldar players wipe the board with my orks in combat, it just require the right tactics.

I think the whole debate needs rephrasing.

In essence the OP is saying that a high initiative is worthless because low initiative troops are not disadvantaged by taking I1 weaponry that increases strength and ignores armour saves.

A better point would be to say that if you are an ork/guard player then power fist/power claw weaponry is a better choice to make during army design as it has less of a negative impact than similar weapons chosen by high initiative troops - This is not to say that high initiative is inherently a bad thing.

Damn, your right.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:I think the whole debate needs rephrasing.

In essence the OP is saying that a high initiative is worthless because low initiative troops are not disadvantaged by taking I1 weaponry that increases strength and ignores armour saves.

A better point would be to say that if you are an ork/guard player then power fist/power claw weaponry is a better choice to make during army design as it has less of a negative impact than similar weapons chosen by high initiative troops - This is not to say that high initiative is inherently a bad thing.

Makes sense, but it still is a disadvantage- you can still be killed before you swing your shinny 25 point weapon, making it a useless buy. With orks, you are also giving up your only potential I4 model in the mob, even if that is only on the charge.

Additionally I would argue that Orks get the most value out of their Powerfists, because it enables them to punch down armor, something that guard do not get from it, and SM units with PF's, costing similar points values to orks, are more likely to have their squad wiped out due to the much lower model count. What I was trying to argue, although now I read it I didnt really get my point across, but is best encapsulated by foldalot- you are comparing apples and oranges. We are looking at a situation which is not the same for both sides under a microscope. The ork player would not be so keen on getting into assaults if he didnt have an advantage in them. The ork player gets less of a benefit from taking single shot high strength weaponry than the eldar do, but that is hardly a contributing factor to why orks win. It is a fact that informs how units are build.

At the end of the game, if the Eldar get destroyed, it is not simply due to the lack of hinderance a PK striking at I1 instead of I3 or I4 when it would have gone second anyway. It is the fact that the eldar player's troops got into a position where they were at a disadvantage, and weren't lucky enough to escape it. I feel you have outlined something that most players already know, Small, elite armies do not want to get into assaults with horde armies. There are things that compound Eldar's difficulties in dealing with theses lists (The fact that Howling banshies do little but die in combat with hordes, the fact that Eldar can not physically put out enough shots to kill enough orks before they are overrun, and the fact that new casualty removal rules favors large squads with low initiative) but ultimately I dont think that the powerfist is a large contributer.

High I can do something the low I can't do. Kill before attack backs. You know that before that powerfist swings, eveybody and their grandmother withh get to attack first. Yes Orks, an assault army will be good at...assaulting. Orks have no defense against powers like doom and fortune, and great things like bladestorm. Yes point for point an ork will be a eldar in combat. It's a giant angry fungus with a spiked bat, and the eldar is a space elf.