Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Alright, I think I've spotted yet another issue with the Valkyrie. Hopefully you guys can explain why I'm wrong here. I didn't see this in any of the other Valk topics, nor did I find it when I scanned through the archives for a few pages. The search function doesn't wanna know at all.

OK, first of all the Valkyrie can carry twelve models. It makes no mention as to size nor does it mention Terminator suits, only Ogryns.

Next, no where in the Daemonhunters Codex could I find a mention that Grey Knight Terminators always take up two places on a transport. It says they take up two in a Land Raider, yes, but I can't find anywhere where it says this is always the case...only when on a Land Raider.

Finally, in a last desperate bid, I checked the big book. It specifically mentions that Space Marine Terminators take up two spaces on transports...but nothing about either Grey Knight or Chaos Marine ones.

So, as far as I can spot, there's no reason (other than stupid points cost) why you couldn't have a full squad of Terminators in a Valkyrie...assuming you can get the buggers on board which is a whole other can of worms.

Am I missing something here due to the hideous lack of sleep I'm currently experiencing?

Old news.

The RaW is Crystal clear. You can stick 12 Grey Knights Terminators into it.

Enjoy

...why am I not shocked? Ah well.

But as with most easter egg finds, good luck finding an opponent or TO who'll let you.

sourclams wrote:But as with most easter egg finds, good luck finding an opponent or TO who'll let you.

I would, because the rules let you. -Shrug- You're paying the points (and it is a lot of Points, for 10 GK Terminators with NFW, Storm Bolters and One Incinerator with an Attached Grey Knights Grandmaster with NFW and Psycannon with Valk is 765 points) for a very situational sub par unit and using it in a way that is 100% Legal by the letter of the rules. Why would I be annoyed?

Oh, I have no intention of doing it. For a start I only have five Grey Knights and no Valk...until I have some idea how to use them I won't touch the damned things. I just noticed it and thought, 'What, another rule problem with the damned thing? You gotta be kidding me.'

Page 6 of Daemonhunters codex does state that the Grey Knights are a chapter of Space Marines. It is not the only place on that page where it tells you specifically that Grey Knights are Space Marines, either.

Do not start buying Grey Knight Terminators to stick in Valkyries. The Ardboys pdf said that Grey Knight Terminators can not ride in Valkyries so expect the Imperial Guard FAQ to get updated to say the same.

Kaaihn wrote:Page 6 of Daemonhunters codex does state that the Grey Knights are a chapter of Space Marines.

So? The rulebook says "for example, each Space Marine Terminator counts as two models."

1) It is an Example, not a Rule in itself
2) It refers to "Space Marines", which is Codex: Space Marines (The same way that Eldar is not Dark Eldar, as shown in the Jetbike rules where they have to specifically include Dark Eldar ones)
3) Space Marine Terminators have such a rule, Grey Knights Terminators do not. Two Separate Units, Two Separate Codex's, two separate rules.
4) Codex trumps Rulebook unless the Rulebook says otherwise. The rulebook does not say otherwise in this case.

Recruits selected to join the Chapter are returned to Titan to begin the long and arduous process which weeds out those without the physical strength and immense mental fortitude to become a Grey Knight. Only the best of the potential recruits survive this selection procedure and are deemed worthy to begin the process of transformation from human to Space Marine.

It is a Space Marine Terminator of the Grey Knight chapter.

You will notice that it does not say in the Black Templars, Dark Angels, or Blood Angels codex under the terminator armour under wargear that it counts as two slots in a transport.

You have precedent in every Marine codex in their Land Raider entries that none of them reference terminator armour by specific chapter name. It is all generic "Models in terminator armor", or "Marines in terminator armor", etc. The rule (or example) in the main rulebook referencing Space Marine Terminators covers all models considered Marines wearing Terminator armor, which the Grey Knights Terminators are.

The problem is, you are now using Fluff as rules.
And using Other codexes as "Precedence" (especially since the DH Codex is older than all the other marine Codexes combined ) is almost as bad.

Big no-no. You can whine and cry all you want, but the fact is, that the RULES say that GKT do not take up 2 Slots and can Ride in Valks. If you don't like it, House rule it, but don't try and claim it is not legal.

We're talking about Valkries, and Grey Knights from the Daemonhunters codex.

In a question concerning Daemonhunters and IG, you do NOT go to the Space Marine dex any more than you would go to the Necron or Tyranid dex. The rules dont work that way.

Concerning this issue, there are three books to look rules up in....IG, Daemonhunters, and the rulebook. Any other rules you would find in other books are beside the point. In this way, Grey Knights are IN NO WAY, space marines. Grey Knights are space marines IN FLUFF ONLY, fluff does not directly translate into rules.

Deadshane1 wrote:We're talking about Valkries, and Grey Knights from the Daemonhunters codex.

In a question concerning Daemonhunters and IG, you do NOT go to the Space Marine dex any more than you would go to the Necron or Tyranid dex. The rules dont work that way.

Concerning this issue, there are three books to look rules up in....IG, Daemonhunters, and the rulebook. Any other rules you would find in other books are beside the point. In this way, Grey Knights are IN NO WAY, space marines. Grey Knights are space marines IN FLUFF ONLY, fluff does not directly translate into rules.

Put much better than I did. As you can see, it is clear that until GW decide to Errata it, GKT Can Ride just fine 10 Strong in a Valk.

To be exact, the unit would be Grandmaster, STERN, and 10 terminators (or 9 as a bodyguard for the GM would be better, so you cannot pick him out in CC).

-two str 6 Nemesis Weapons that slay eternal warriors outright. Goodnight.

(ridiculous unit though...dont expect it to get into HtH at full str...EVER.

Deadshane1 wrote:To be exact, the unit would be Grandmaster, STERN, and 10 terminators (or 9 as a bodyguard for the GM would be better, so you cannot pick him out in CC).

-two str 6 Nemesis Weapons that slay eternal warriors outright. Goodnight.

(ridiculous unit though...dont expect it to get into HtH at full str...EVER.

Not to mention all the Terminators can take NFW (which Ignore Armour and are S6). It's a sick unit, but it WILL be Primaried. You have to roll a 1 Sometime

I cannot imagine how sticking 800 or so points worth of troops in a flimsy valkrie would be a good idea...but anyone willing to try is certainly entitled to do it in my opinion.

Whoever trys this ludicrous "tactic" would definatly be someone more afraid of lascannons than melta insofaras tankbusting.

Deadshane1 wrote:I cannot imagine how sticking 800 or so points worth of troops in a flimsy valkrie would be a good idea...but anyone willing to try is certainly entitled to do it in my opinion.

Whoever trys this ludicrous "tactic" would definatly be someone more afraid of lascannons than melta insofaras tankbusting.

True. The way I see this being used is using the Valkarie to outflank. That way you avoid nasty Seize the Initiative deaths.

Of course the best way would be to Go First, Scout move 24", then Disembark, move 6" and charge 6". but you will always have that 1/6 chance of geting melta's up your arse (especialy since the Valk wont have the cover save)

Why wouldnt it have a cover save?

Deadshane1 wrote:Why wouldnt it have a cover save?

The way it is worded. For a Skimmer to get the cover save, it must have moved Flat out In its previous movement phase.

Turboboosters give a cover save "in the subsequent shooting phase"

In short: Bikes Turboboost Scout = 3+ Cover
Skimmers Scout Moving Flat out = No Save

Page 92 of the Apocalypse book says "...Terminators count as two..." when talking about how much space certain models take up in transports.

Not space marine terminators, chaos terminators, or grey knight terminators - "Terminators". All types.

I dont have my rulebook, BUT, scout move allows a movement phase before the game starts.

You might want to look that up. I think you'd have a hard time not allowing the valkrie a cover save after moving flat out during its scout MOVE.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spellbound wrote:Page 92 of the Apocalypse book says "...Terminators count as two..." when talking about how much space certain models take up in transports.

Not space marine terminators, chaos terminators, or grey knight terminators - "Terminators". All types.

Shame we're playing 40k in this thread...not Apocolypse. I play 40k extensively, but I do NOT play Apoc...hence, I dont need the rulebook...nothing in the Apocalypse rulebook has any bearing in the game of 40k.

Deadshane1 wrote:I dont have my rulebook, BUT, scout move allows a movement phase before the game starts.

You might want to look that up. I think you'd have a hard time not allowing the valkrie a cover save after moving flat out during its scout MOVE.

That's just it. it is a Move, not a Movement Phase.

Page 71:
Skimmers moving at high speed are very difficult to hit. A Skimmer that is not immobilised and has moved flat out in Its last Movement phase counts as obscured (cover save of 4+) when fired at.

Page 76:
Scouts are used to reconnoitre ahead and are always in the vanguard of the army. To represent this, after both Sides have deployed (including infiltrators), but before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their Movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12· away from any enemy.

As you can see, though the Scout move follows the same rules as movement in the Movement Phase, it is not an additional Movement Phase.

Spellbound wrote:Page 92 of the Apocalypse book says "...Terminators count as two..." when talking about how much space certain models take up in transports.

Not space marine terminators, chaos terminators, or grey knight terminators - "Terminators". All types.

I roffled. This isn't Apoc we are talking about. Oh, and these Are not Terminators, these are Grey Knights Terminators. Subtle difference, but different.

Gwar! wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:I dont have my rulebook, BUT, scout move allows a movement phase before the game starts.

You might want to look that up. I think you'd have a hard time not allowing the valkrie a cover save after moving flat out during its scout MOVE.

That's just it. it is a Move, not a Movement Phase.

Page 71:
Skimmers moving at high speed are very difficult to hit. A Skimmer that is not immobilised and has moved flat out in Its last Movement phase counts as obscured (cover save of 4+) when fired at.

Page 76:
Scouts are used to reconnoitre ahead and are always in the vanguard of the army. To represent this, after both Sides have deployed (including infiltrators), but before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their Movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12· away from any enemy.

As you can see, though the Scout move follows the same rules as movement in the Movement Phase, it is not an additional Movement Phase.

"Normal move" in the Scout rule section seems to me that it indicates a "movement phase"...especially since the rule says that its done exacly AS a movement phase except for the one restriction.

I think you'd have a hard time having any tournement judge to agree with you on this one. Since a scout move is done exactly as in their movement phase you're on a rather slippery slope here.

Essentially, the skimmer moved flat out exactly as if in a movement phase...how again does it not get a cover save?

Deadshane1 wrote:
I think you'd have a hard time having any tournement judge to agree with you on this one. Since a scout move is done exactly as in their movement phase you're on a rather slippery slope here.

I think you'r have a hard time having any tournament judge agree with you that GKT an ride in a Valk, but that is not important to the discussion.

Done "as if in the movement phase" does not make mean that there is a new movement phase.

Just because the move is done using the same rules, does not make it an additional Movement Phase, as defined by the Rules for The Turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RustyKnight wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:
I think you'd have a hard time having any tournement judge to agree with you on this one. Since a scout move is done exactly as in their movement phase you're on a rather slippery slope here.

I think you'r have a hard time having any tournament judge agree with you that GKT an ride in a Valk, but that is not important to the discussion.

I thought Tournament Judges made sure people played by the rules?

RustyKnight wrote:
Done "as if in the movement phase" does not make mean that there is a new movement phase.

No, but the point is that you play it exactly as if there were.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:Just because the move is done using the same rules, does not make it an additional Movement Phase, as defined by the Rules for The Turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RustyKnight wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:
I think you'd have a hard time having any tournement judge to agree with you on this one. Since a scout move is done exactly as in their movement phase you're on a rather slippery slope here.

I think you'r have a hard time having any tournament judge agree with you that GKT an ride in a Valk, but that is not important to the discussion.

I thought Tournament Judges made sure people played by the rules?

C'mon now Gwar, I appreciate your grasp of hard RAW but surely you see I have a point with the "exactly as if in the movement phase" point.

I'll have to be done here however. I dont have a rulebook availiable at work so I cannot effectively argue the hard points of THIS debate.

Deadshane1 wrote:

RustyKnight wrote:
Done "as if in the movement phase" does not make mean that there is a new movement phase.

No, but the point is that you play it exactly as if there were.

No you don't, you just follow the same rules as if it were a movement phase, but it is NOT a movement phase.

Thats exactly my point. It Seems like it would be, but it is not, because of the wording. If they wanted it to be an Extra Movement Phase in all regards, they would have just said "There is an Extra Movement Phase" and be done with it, rather than use the wording that they have now, which lets them move using the movement phase rules outside of a Movement Phase

Oh and my "Judges = Rules" thing was directed at the GKT issue, not this. Well, maybe this a little bit, as it is what the rules tell you.

Gwar! wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

RustyKnight wrote:
Done "as if in the movement phase" does not make mean that there is a new movement phase.

No, but the point is that you play it exactly as if there were.

No you don't, you just follow the same rules as if it were a movement phase, but it is NOT a movement phase.

but "if it were a movement phase" you would get a cover save....that is the rule. You just talked yourself out of your point.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

RustyKnight wrote:
Done "as if in the movement phase" does not make mean that there is a new movement phase.

No, but the point is that you play it exactly as if there were.

No you don't, you just follow the same rules as if it were a movement phase, but it is NOT a movement phase.

but "if it were a movement phase" you would get a cover save....that is the rule. You just talked yourself out of your point.

-Sigh- The rules do not tell you to do it as if it were a movement phase anyway, they it says "any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their Movement phase". All it means is that the movement rules apply, it does not create a whole new Movement Phase.

Gwar, if all movement rules apply, then you would get a cover save.

Your arguement is tenuous at best. You cannot pick and choose which movement rules or rules concerning movement that you use or dont use.

The valkrie either moved, or it didnt. If it didnt move, it wouldnt be 24" away from its previous location.