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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090614/ap_on_re_as/as_koreas_nuclear

This little piss-ant country is totally bat-sh!t crazy! If its true that they can feild only around 6-12 nukes of questionable accuracy and they're basically trying to dictate to the WORLD whats up...wtf.

Is anybody really concerned about this? The idea of nuclear war is so very terrible obviously...one part of me wonders what sort of gov't is actually silly enough to think that nukes are an answer to anything at all. The other part realises that this is a country where my western rationale probably doesnt even begin to comprehend whats going thru their minds. Honestly, I'm not sure if I should be concerned or not...for all the good my worrying will do.

Time to boot up my future survival simulator. I'm about to hit level 20 in Fallout 3 once again...perhaps I'll download the latest content for new options.

No we need g.i joe.
But really i think russia and china might step in before anything happens.

One mad man does not speak the will of a whole nation.

Keep that in mind before insulting others. After all , all the heat is what makes humans fight among each other all the time.

North Korea isn't going to get anywhere. Their population is malnourished and isn't any bigger than Australia's. China and Russia aren't backing NK, so if they make an act of war, they're going to be taken down by the rest of the world pretty damn quickly. The only thing holding us back is the fact that if we make an act of war, they could bomb Seoul into oblivion.

LunaHound wrote:
One mad man does not speak the will of a whole nation.

Isnt this essentially a dictatorship we're talking about here? If so, I think one mad man does INDEED speak the will of a whole nation.


...Keep THAT in mind.

If North Korea starts a nuclear war, they will be going down faster than a 16 year old on prom night, the question is, will they be able to bite your nuts off first?

The little man wants to be a big man in a world of giants. I want to ignore him, but he seems to be just the type to pull somethingly isanely stupid, like start a nuclear war, to get attention.

Deadshane1 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
One mad man does not speak the will of a whole nation.

Isnt this essentially a dictatorship we're talking about here? If so, I think one mad man does INDEED speak the will of a whole nation.


...Keep THAT in mind.

Just because he can dictate the whole country, that doesnt mean the rest of the country approves of it.
if anything , they are too scared of their own lives to resist.

Keep THAT in mind before you go insult a whole nation and their people.

I suppose we can always hope that someone in NK's top brass will see sense and give Kim the boot.

Cheese Elemental wrote:I suppose we can always hope that someone in NK's top brass will see sense and give Kim the boot.

Now thats actually the best scenario i heard so far.

Comming from cheese elemental too never the less.

(top brass?) are you really 16? i have never ever heard some of the phrases you use before.

I'm nearly sure that they are simply waiting for him to die so they'll be safe from hardliners revenge killing them. The man has concentration camps, but some people ther do actually believe him a god.

*heres hoping the next regime chooses to end the insanity and give up all that power. Probably not, but I like to think that humanity is occasionally capable of self-sacrifice for the common good.

It's times like these that I really really really really really really hope that it does happen, so that people finally realize that nukes are only to be used in case of dire absolute
need, in which most of the world aggres that the use of nukes are justified. but nobody listens to the pyshco walking back and forth, muttering some thing about zombie s and cake with a side of coffee....

LunaHound wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
One mad man does not speak the will of a whole nation.

Isnt this essentially a dictatorship we're talking about here? If so, I think one mad man does INDEED speak the will of a whole nation.


...Keep THAT in mind.

Just because he can dictate the whole country, that doesnt mean the rest of the country approves of it.
if anything , they are too scared of their own lives to resist.

Keep THAT in mind before you go insult a whole nation and their people.

...at the risk of deviation from the real subject...

I'm talking about a country on the verge of starting a nuclear war...

you seem miffed at my "insulting another countries people"...

Which should we discuss I wonder, my rudeness or another nation accepting a madman who threatens nuclear war as ruler? Keep on track Luna, examine your priorities.

You see, apparently the country DOES approve. If they do nothing, in my opinion, they approve. F@ck them. Uprising, rebellion, leaving the country...they are all options, especially if you are under the rule of a madman threatening to use such drastic means against another nation.

All I'll say at this point is, is that this dimension is really boring.

Almost all the others have dropped twice as many nukes as you guys.

HURRY UP AND DO IT ALREADY!

Ratbarf wrote:If North Korea starts a nuclear war, they will be going down faster than a 16 year old on prom night, the question is, will they be able to bite your nuts off first?

True. north korea aint bad at all. its there alliances. currently there allied with china. whose army has more men the the american population

China is one of the countries that APPROVED the sanction against the north.

They wont stand with N. Korea on this one.

I'd just like to add that while N Korea has nuclear weapons, the people on the TV box say their missiles lack the capacity to lift them. That being said, they do have the capacity to deliver conventional warheads as well as biological/ chemical weapons.

True, that. China may be an oppressive communist regime, but they don't have hostile intentions towards the west.

I can imagine there's a fair bit of facepalming going on in the Chinese and Russian governments. Mind you, they probably weren't expecting NK to abuse their aid like this.

If North Korea started a war it would be by destroying the capitol of south korea.

MILLIONS OF SOUTH KOREANS WOULD DIE IN THIS ACTION. The american forces stationed there are paltry compared to the million man army, and even with the inevitable and quick destruction of the Norths ability to supply its war machine and prosecute an offensive the simple act of attacking the south would ensure one of the most bloody conflicts in decades.

Then there's japan. Kim would nuke japan. He has the questionable capability and the will. Kim has 6-8 possible nukes, this would ensure the conflicts casualties would rise into the double digit millions.


Kim would strike civilian targets with chemical and nuclear weapons. He has nothing to lose. He is insane. He has promised to do so dozens of times. This is not Iraq. This is North Korea, north korea has thousands of artillery pieces on their border aimed at Seoul armed with chlorine gas and other chemical agents. It has an army of over one million soldiers. It is the fourth largest military on the planet.

Just because he can dictate the whole country, that doesnt mean the rest of the country approves of it.
if anything , they are too scared of their own lives to resist.

Keep THAT in mind before you go insult a whole nation and their people.

You don't know much about North Korea do you? Firstly Kim is worshipped as the father of the state. His power is akin to that of a god within the north. What he says goes, any dissent at all results in either execution or imprisonment for three generations in a concentration camp. There is no dissent in the North because dissent is suicide and a starving populace that has absolutely no ability to revolt is not going to try.

I suppose we can always hope that someone in NK's top brass will see sense and give Kim the boot.

This is unlikely. Decades of being worshipped as the father and execution of anything even resembling something other than lockstep obedience has very effectively removed the will to revolt. There's a reason he has been around so long despite the absolute debasement of North Koreas entire population.



The only true option other than waiting for kim to die and praying that the son granted power is less insane is an unannounced pre-emptive and massive airstrike removing the Norths ability to launch nukes, bombard seoul, and prosecute a land invasion. No small task considering the entire American Military is busy on the other side of the planet.

The news puts it as sabre rattling, I kind of agree. Back in the cold war it was mutually assured destruction (MAD doctrine), Kim just want's to reasure that the M is there, capitolised, maybe even underlined. This gives him a better negotiating position.

Deadshane1 wrote:...at the risk of deviation from the real subject...

I'm talking about a country on the verge of starting a nuclear war...

you seem miffed at my "insulting another countries people"...

Which should we discuss I wonder, my rudeness or another nation accepting a madman who threatens nuclear war as ruler? Keep on track Luna, examine your priorities.

You see, apparently the country DOES approve. If they do nothing, in my opinion, they approve. F@ck them. Uprising, rebellion, leaving the country...they are all options, especially if you are under the rule of a madman threatening to use such drastic means against another nation.

Your idea that a country needs to be held responsible for its leader because it hasn't undertaken violent uprising is pretty dubious. Is the Iraq war the responsibility of the entirety of the US population, or just the leadership that decided on the war and then set about creating the casus belli?

Second up, what are you actually proposing here? Because right now the situation is that an unstable regime could go nuts and kill a million odd South Koreans. The current solution is to prevent that nation increasing its killing abilities through blockade, while waiting it out and hoping the regime moves to something more stable. The alternative is war, and the only thing that would achieve is the destuction of Seoul, which is the worst case scenario anyway.

So what is it you want out of this situation that isn't being met already?

Deadshane1 wrote:China is one of the countries that APPROVED the sanction against the north.

They wont stand with N. Korea on this one.

China's position is a lot more complicated than being 'allied' with either us or the N Koreans. Right now, in terms of sanctions they are on-side with S Korea, Japan and the US. If N Korea were to invade, they would support the S Koreans. But if the US were to start making war noises like Deadshane1, you better believe they'd start backing N Korea. The Chinese primary interest is stability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

garret wrote:True. north korea aint bad at all. its there alliances. currently there allied with china. whose army has more men the the american population

No, China doesn't have 300 million troops. It has around 100 million, the vast majority of whom are reserves with no capability for deployment outside their provinces, let alone to other countries.

The only relevant factor is force projection, and while China is improving year to year it doesn't match the US.

sebster wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:...at the risk of deviation from the real subject...

I'm talking about a country on the verge of starting a nuclear war...

you seem miffed at my "insulting another countries people"...

Which should we discuss I wonder, my rudeness or another nation accepting a madman who threatens nuclear war as ruler? Keep on track Luna, examine your priorities.

You see, apparently the country DOES approve. If they do nothing, in my opinion, they approve. F@ck them. Uprising, rebellion, leaving the country...they are all options, especially if you are under the rule of a madman threatening to use such drastic means against another nation.

Your idea that a country needs to be held responsible for its leader because it hasn't undertaken violent uprising is pretty dubious. Is the Iraq war the responsibility of the entirety of the US population, or just the leadership that decided on the war and then set about creating the casus belli?

Second up, what are you actually proposing here? Because right now the situation is that an unstable regime could go nuts and kill a million odd South Koreans. The current solution is to prevent that nation increasing its killing abilities through blockade, while waiting it out and hoping the regime moves to something more stable. The alternative is war, and the only thing that would achieve is the destuction of Seoul, which is the worst case scenario anyway.

So what is it you want out of this situation that isn't being met already?

Deadshane1 wrote:China is one of the countries that APPROVED the sanction against the north.

They wont stand with N. Korea on this one.

China's position is a lot more complicated than being 'allied' with either us or the N Koreans. Right now, in terms of sanctions they are on-side with S Korea, Japan and the US. If N Korea were to invade, they would support the S Koreans. But if the US were to start making war noises like Deadshane1, you better believe they'd start backing N Korea. The Chinese primary interest is stability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

garret wrote:True. north korea aint bad at all. its there alliances. currently there allied with china. whose army has more men the the american population

No, China doesn't have 300 million troops. It has around 100 million, the vast majority of whom are reserves with no capability for deployment outside their provinces, let alone to other countries.

The only relevant factor is force projection, and while China is improving year to year it doesn't match the US.

I stopped reading when you compared the U.S. to N. Korea...there is no similarity.

We dont threaten Nuclear War and killing millions of innocents in one fell swoop.

There is a big difference between the U.S. being in the wrong concerning the Iraq War (which is debatable on certain points) and N. Korea being in the wrong in threatening/starting a nuclear war.

I think you're trying to make an arguement based on the fact that I have an American flag next to my avatar rather than the actual point of the thread.

Deadshane1 wrote:I stopped reading when you compared the U.S. to N. Korea...there is no similarity.

We dont threaten Nuclear War and killing millions of innocents in one fell swoop.

There is a big difference between the U.S. being in the wrong concerning the Iraq War (which is debatable on certain points) and N. Korea being in the wrong in threatening/starting a nuclear war.

I think you're trying to make an arguement based on the fact that I have an American flag next to my avatar rather than the actual point of the thread.

Dude, that’s just lazy. I never drew equivalency between the US and North Korea. I gave an example to point out that the people cannot be held strictly responsible for the policies of their government, even in a democracy. I could have used a lot of different policies from a lot of different countries, but I chose the US invasion of Iraq because it’s a very simple case as government was lying to the population, removing much of the blame from the population. This tied in nicely with the situation in N Korea where propaganda of the government is tremendous.

There no attempt made at equivalency between the two countries, none hinted at or implied. You read it into my post for reasons entirely your own. Whether it was sidetrack the discussion, because you’re really keen to see nutball leftism where there is none, or because you have no concept of how two things can be seen with similar qualities without being compared overall. I don’t know, but it’s something you need to work on.

sebster wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:I stopped reading when you compared the U.S. to N. Korea...there is no similarity.

We dont threaten Nuclear War and killing millions of innocents in one fell swoop.

There is a big difference between the U.S. being in the wrong concerning the Iraq War (which is debatable on certain points) and N. Korea being in the wrong in threatening/starting a nuclear war.

I think you're trying to make an arguement based on the fact that I have an American flag next to my avatar rather than the actual point of the thread.

Dude, that’s just lazy. I never drew equivalency between the US and North Korea. I gave an example to point out that the people cannot be held strictly responsible for the policies of their government, even in a democracy. I could have used a lot of different policies from a lot of different countries, but I chose the US invasion of Iraq because it’s a very simple case as government was lying to the population, removing much of the blame from the population. This tied in nicely with the situation in N Korea where propaganda of the government is tremendous.

There no attempt made at equivalency between the two countries, none hinted at or implied. You read it into my post for reasons entirely your own. Whether it was sidetrack the discussion, because you’re really keen to see nutball leftism where there is none, or because you have no concept of how two things can be seen with similar qualities without being compared overall. I don’t know, but it’s something you need to work on.

Actually, I dont.

One thing I DO know is...that your posts really dont have much to do with the point of this thread in the first place.

The initial point here was honestly to determine whether or one one should be concerned with the state of affairs in Korea.....just to let you know. Something you might want to work on is reading comprehension....this thread isnt about flaming one another, its about analysing the state of affairs in the East.

Thank you drive thru.

Deadshane1 wrote:Actually, I dont.

One thing I DO know is...that your posts really dont have much to do with the point of this thread in the first place.

The initial point here was honestly to determine whether or one one should be concerned with the state of affairs in Korea.....just to let you know. Something you might want to work on is reading comprehension....this thread isnt about flaming one another, its about analysing the state of affairs in the East.

Thank you drive thru.

I wasn't driving through. If you read my post you would see that. I questioned your suggestion that the North Koreans should be accountable for the actions of their government, a very big issue in determining what level of response is appropriate to a government out of control. I then asked you what your proposed solution to the problem is. Lastly I pointed out that your assumption about China standing by the US/Japan/South Korea or by North Korea would depend a lot on who was doing the attacking.

At no point did I stray from your original topic. The only change in the topic came when you misinterpreted my post and started a ditty about how the US is better than North Korea, which, while true, had absolutely nothing to do with anything.

In the interests of giving everyone a second chance, I'm happy to restate my point here for you, so you can see they're very much on topic, so that you can consider them and reply;
Point 1; it isn't fair to judge a population by its government. While the government of North Korea is very bad, that doesn't mean you can completely ignore the well-being of its people when considering policy towards the country.
Point 2; While it is true that North Korea is the bad guy, what exactly do you propose we do? Right now containment is managing to stop loads of people being killed, and the regime is inherently unstable so there is always a chance of a more reasonable government taking control.
Point 3; Your assumption that China is on our side now is dubious. China's allegiance depends entirely on the facts on the ground, and who is threatening the preferred Chinese state of things.

sebster wrote:
Point 1; it isn't fair to judge a population by its government. While the government of North Korea is very bad, that doesn't mean you can completely ignore the well-being of its people when considering policy towards the country.

Fine, however, this whole line of debate started when luna chastised me for calling them a "piss-ant" little country that was bat-sh!t crazy. Surely a horrendous insult to the populace, however, while here on an informal forum, thats really a perfectly acceptable way to describe THEIR GOVERNMENT. Obviously I wasnt talking about the populace in the first place, but someone chose to deviate from the point here and take issue with what I said.
So, can we get on with the real issues then?

Point 2; While it is true that North Korea is the bad guy, what exactly do you propose we do? Right now containment is managing to stop loads of people being killed, and the regime is inherently unstable so there is always a chance of a more reasonable government taking control.

I personally dont propose anything, my initial question is whether or not westerners need to be concerned with the state of affairs in the east. Proposals about what should be done is an interesting subject as well however.

Point 3; Your assumption that China is on our side now is dubious. China's allegiance depends entirely on the facts on the ground, and who is threatening the preferred Chinese state of things.

I never said that China is on our side. I stated that they approved the U.N. Sanctions...which is a fact.

Deadshane1 wrote: Fine, however, this whole line of debate started when luna chastised me for calling them a "piss-ant" little country that was bat-sh!t crazy. Surely a horrendous insult to the populace, however, while here on an informal forum, thats really a perfectly acceptable way to describe THEIR GOVERNMENT. Obviously I wasnt talking about the populace in the first place, but someone chose to deviate from the point here and take issue with what I said.

I didn’t make any comment on Luna telling you off for offending them, I didn’t think it was relevant either. I don’t know how much of an emphasis Luna was putting on ‘insult’ compared to ‘they’re actually still people even if their government is crazy’, but I thought it better to focus on the latter. Which is a real issue, and a very important one, because we have to remember that the North Korean government isn’t just holding Seoul to ransom, but also the people of North Korea.

I personally dont propose anything, my initial question is whether or not westerners need to be concerned with the state of affairs in the east. Proposals about what should be done is an interesting subject as well however.

Well, then, the answer is yes, we do need to be concerned, but also that we already are concerned and are doing things. There have been multiple attempts to stop the North Korean nuclear weapons program (and while they have failed, this has been due to both sides failing to keep the deals).

I never said that China is on our side. I stated that they approved the U.N. Sanctions...which is a fact.

Garret was talking about how quickly North Korea would be defeated, but that they had a powerful ally in China. You posted that China won’t stand with N Korea on this one.

My point was that it really depended on what ‘this one’ is. If it’s a North Korean invasion of South Korea then yeah, I’d agree that China won’t help them at all. If it’s missile strikes or even an invasion of North Korea, well then the Chinese position is not so certain.

Japan and South korea are the 2 countries in danger.

Even they aren't stupid enough to shoot at China.
South Korea and Japan are within range of their ballistic missiles with large population centres for maximum damage.
And neither country have nukes to shoot back at them.

Sigh, flame shield up. As a long time U.S. airman and war vet, who comes from a long time military familiy, I'd like to add my two cents.

(Warning long read)

First. I yelled as loud as I could something should have been done about North Korea and not Iraq. They were close to having nukes then, and we all knew Iraq didn't. They have been giving nuke info to Iran ever since, and now they do have at least 2-3 nukes...at least. Yes It would have been been messy, but America was still at the hight of it's power then and China still depended on our imports, and Russia wasn't yet the glass tiger it is today. Yes I was the only bleeding heart Dem crying for war with N.Korea instead of Iraq, I still belive it was the right thing to do.

Second. People love to discount any other countries bar the few involved. Noth korea is a nation alone. Russia and China still depend on global trade to survive. Joining north Korea in a war with the UN would Alienate them from the rest of the world, they just cant depend on each other, and China doesn't have the materials to move there massive man power anywhere, or the sea power to protect them from being raked by fire or the air pwer to sink America's HUGE Two ocean armada. Why would they go to war with the biggest consumer of thier goods, wreaking thier own markets. Or enen endanger the pay back of debt? Just for the sake of a mad man who thinks he is a god ina land of starving people? The chinese are many things, stupid isn't one of them.

Thirdly: the millitary has had half a damn century to dig into South Korea, do you think the only plan they have is OMG WTF. This has been the war hawks like Cheney dream of. there has been over that time enough balistic fire power to char the north and blanket the sky.

Do not be mistaken about the last two wars. Basicly fought with one portion of one branch (marines) and held with one portion of another (Army). I can't impart on you the hell all four branches of the U.S. military can bring down on a area. With no reservations, the full backing of the American people, and the rest of the western world it's massive landmass mafely tucked away and fully tuned to military production, and all bases around the world focused on on point, and the 50 years of military advancement over any other country. I swear if the rest of the world knew what we could do we'd have no friends. Noth korea could stop one mass tank push from one of Texas's armored companies. all thoes millions of men would be slaughter by tanks firing depleted uranium from 2 miles away. China wouldn't fire at South korea or Japan, or risk war with Nato and every other country they have defence pacts with, and making sure they ruined thier new found economic clout.

Noth korea would fall quickly and alone, with only one or two south Korean cities damaged.

LunaHound wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
One mad man does not speak the will of a whole nation.

Isnt this essentially a dictatorship we're talking about here? If so, I think one mad man does INDEED speak the will of a whole nation.


...Keep THAT in mind.

Just because he can dictate the whole country, that doesnt mean the rest of the country approves of it.
if anything , they are too scared of their own lives to resist.

Keep THAT in mind before you go insult a whole nation and their people.

Who the cares what the rest of the country thinks? They are irrelevant.