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Looking at my previous posts of different systems and seeing other rants about GW's prices, I started to wonder about the examples used when comparing prices and systems. The usual price comparison is between GW & WM. I just spent five minutes digging around and dragged out these examples.

32 man US Airbourne set from Warlord Games £32. This works out at £1 a model. Need to add bases, but even if you use 2p's that only adds another 64p to the total price.

10 man Grey Knight squad £20 (don't know if it's gone up). This works out at £2 a model

7 man Urban War Gladiator strike force £20. Works out at £2.85 a model

Consider this:

US Airbourne set gives you all the models you need to start playing Rules of Engagement for £32.

You couldn't really buy enough metal models for £12 to build a playable army for 40K.

Urban War Gladiator strike force £20 gives you a playable force.

By the way this isn't a potshot / endorsement of any company, just trying to add more examples in to the argument.

Wolfstan wrote:Looking at my previous posts of different systems and seeing other rants about GW's prices, I started to wonder about the examples used when comparing prices and systems. The usual price comparison is between GW & WM. I just spent five minutes digging around and dragged out these examples.

32 man US Airbourne set from Warlord Games £32. This works out at £1 a model. Need to add bases, but even if you use 2p's that only adds another 64p to the total price.

10 man Grey Knight squad £20 (don't know if it's gone up). This works out at £2 a model

7 man Urban War Gladiator strike force £20. Works out at £2.85 a model

Consider this:

US Airbourne set gives you all the models you need to start playing Rules of Engagement for £32.

You couldn't really buy enough metal models for £12 to build a playable army for 40K.

Urban War Gladiator strike force £20 gives you a playable force.

By the way this isn't a potshot / endorsement of any company, just trying to add more examples in to the argument.

The thing is though, It isn't about price.

You could easily GIVE GAME RULES away for free, but if your crowd, or game club, or pals, or whoever don't want to play the game, then the issue is kinda moot pointed, then.

You have to GET them in the door, then you have to keep them, and bottom line- Thats the real deal when it comes to gaming.

Grot6: What you are saying about group play is spot on when comparing GW's prices to competing miniature products. However, comparisons between GW's prices and other hobbies may prove to be more interesting.

Games Workshop - Single Figure ~ $20
-or-
A used video game (Older title, or portable title)
A new DVD
Movie tickets for yourself and your lady friend.
2 CCG theme decks or 5 booster packs
1:48 scale Tamiya armor model kit
1:144 scale HG Gundam kit
A -nice- steak dinner
24 beers

Games Workshop - Squad Box ~ $42
-or-
A used video game (Newer title)
A new video game (Non-best seller or portable title)
A DVD box set (TV season)
10 CCG booster packs
1:35 scale model kit
1:100 scale Master Grade Gundam kit

Games Workshop - Battalion Box - $108
-or-
Nintendo DS (used)
Any new video game
DVD player
CCG booster box (game dependent)
Resin kits
A nice import toy or statue
A pair of nice sneakers

Set of Golf Clubs: $500-$5000 (I have no idea, but a quick web search was turning up individual clubs for $500)
Country Club Membership: $10,000+ /year

New Harley: $10,000-$20,000

Pool Table: $2500-$5000

Skydiving: $100/weekend

Plane Rental: $100-200/hour
Private Pilot Lessons: $6500

Do you guys really think GW is an expensive hobby?

I've got at least eight armies, all at least 4000 points, and I still haven't spent anywhere close to as much as I have on my motorcycles.

@Redbeard: Uh. I do not understand your point, as people with grotesque amounts of disposable income who are able participate in the hobbies you listed are NOT GW'S TARGET DEMOGRAPHIC.

GWs high prices have really put a dent in my smack hobby

Woah, hold on guys. I wasn't wanting to go down usual comparison route, just trying to move away from the usual GW v WM battle.

The second part of my OP was a bolt on to the issue. It looks like if you are a company like PP or UM, your models are on a par with GW, if not slightly more expensive (see UW). On the other hand historical models seem to be cheaper.

The 2nd hal does indicate that for there are systems out there that allow you to put together a playable force of metal figures for under £40. Whether you like the systems or can get a chance to play them isn't the point, it's just showing it can be done.

The Op didn't make sense to me. Gaming company posturing aside, shouldn't we either be comparing things that are priced similarly to one another or things that complete the same function for disparate price points?

Seems like apples, oranges, and toasters so far.

Of course a skirmish game is less expensive. The GW equivalent would be Mordheim or Necromunda or Blood Bowl, all of which require about $50 max to have a fieldable force.

Minis that aren't released for a specific game system (like most historical minis) are -per model- cheaper, but the quality is often less too.

as people with grotesque amounts of disposable income who are able participate in the hobbies you listed are NOT GW'S TARGET DEMOGRAPHIC.

So... with that being said, who do you THINK is their target demographic? You sound like they can only have one... I'm pretty sure there's multiple demographics out there that GW targets...

Buying GW products requires disposable income regardless of demographic.

keezus wrote:@Redbeard: Uh. I do not understand your point, as people with grotesque amounts of disposable income who are able participate in the hobbies you listed are NOT GW'S TARGET DEMOGRAPHIC.

How do you figure?

EDIT: Also, owning a Harley or Car isn't exactly all that much more money then playing GW games if you factor in the Harley as an essential mode of transportation. In the US at least, just about everybody has a car or bike to get around. That's not necessarily "disposable" income more than it can be conceived as poor choice in mode of conveyance.

Moz wrote:The Op didn't make sense to me. Gaming company posturing aside, shouldn't we either be comparing things that are priced similarly to one another or things that complete the same function for disparate price points?

Seems like apples, oranges, and toasters so far.

Okay fair enough:

Metal 28mm US Paratrooper £1 per model
Metal 28mm Grey Knight £2 per model
Metal 28mm Urban War £2.85 per model

On top of this people say that WM models are the same price or dearer than GW stuff, so this could indicate that GW metal figures are cheaper compared to it's mainstream rivals.

keezus wrote:@Redbeard: Uh. I do not understand your point, as people with grotesque amounts of disposable income who are able participate in the hobbies you listed are NOT GW'S TARGET DEMOGRAPHIC.

Maybe not, but the target's demographic have parents with disposable incomes who do spend their money on said other hobbies as well as shell out $$$ for the kids who play GW games.

When you're comparing GW to other companies, you have to compare what it takes to game with them, really.

If you want to compare on a Model to Model basis, then that's fine, assuming you just want to collect or paint mini's.

If you want to compare things on a "game" scale, then that's where GW gets expensive.

Realistically, 40k is played at 1500 to 1850 points. That's where the "normal" army is.

WHFB is played at the 2000 Point level, though more recently I've only played at the 2250 point level.

This requires an investment of several hundred dollars, even when factoring online/local discounts. More so for WHFB than 40k, due to the higher points level required for a standard game.

Warmachine & Hordes are played at the 500 to 750 points level, though 750 Points is the standard most people will play at in established clubs.

For a new player, it is feasible that he can ask for 1500 point 40k games, but will still have to stick to at least 2000 points for WHFB to get a "normal" game.

For WM it's feasible to ask for 500 point games as a new player. Fun/viable 500 Point WM armies can easily be had for $130 with discounts, to $150 without.

To start up functional/fun armies, it is significantly cheaper to start WM/Hordes than either GW game, despite the fact that on a unit by unit basis PP can cost more than GW (which is not the case when it comes to larger models, ie comparing Jacks/Beasts to Dreads/MC's/Tanks/Monsters).

Furthermore, and this is the area where PP really wins for me, as a player "gets into" each respective game, a PP player can with minor purchases radically affect their style of army. This is because each unit "does more" in the respective game.

GW armies have very little variation in terms of what's good, let alone what's competitive. Further, the purchase of "new units" can be exceptionally expensive with not nearly as much impact on an army.

Therefore my $$ spent to in game translation to a different play experience is very low with GW compared to PP.

Much of this has to do with how PP and GW handle their respective rules sets, army updates, and model releases, which is a separate topic from pricing, but those aspects of their business has huge impacts on the costs of "the game".

You also have to consider whether or not people want to even play a particular game. I like GW's miniature aesthetics, which is one of the reasons I keep buying them. I like Matt Williams as an artist, but I really dislike the aesthetic of Warmachine and Hordes. Doesn't matter to me how good a deal their minis are.

keezus wrote:@Redbeard: Uh. I do not understand your point, as people with grotesque amounts of disposable income who are able participate in the hobbies you listed are NOT GW'S TARGET DEMOGRAPHIC.

Hrm, really?

I live and work in Chicago, where there are more GW stores than you can shake a stick at. Are they in Posen, Harvey, and the south-side neighborhoods of the city? No. They're in Shaumburg, Orland Park, Downers Grove, and Woodfield Mall. Where people with grotesque amounts of disposable income live.

As Sarigar stated, maybe the kids aren't making the money, but they've got the parents who are. If the target demographic was "14-18 year olds" regardless of income, why don't they put their stores where the poor people live? Poor people have kids too... Oh yeah, because that's not the demographic. They don't want parents who question spending $50 on 5 terminators, they want parents who drop $500 for their kid's birthday without finding that strange.

whitedragon wrote:
EDIT: Also, owning a Harley or Car isn't exactly all that much more money then playing GW games if you factor in the Harley as an essential mode of transportation.

Ha ha ha ha ha. Sorry, I don't think I know more than one biker in Chicago for whom their bike is their essential mode of transportation. We have four months each year where you'd die on the ice. Nope, motorcycles are a hobby, at least for most of the other riders I know.

----

The fact is that poor people (including college students, if only temporarily) will never be able to afford the same hobbies as middle class people, and middle class people will never be able to afford the same hobbies as rich people. I'm comfortably middle class, so I can pursue a couple of hobbies, but I certainly can't do everything I might possibly want to. I don't golf, I don't bowl, I rarely go to the movies anymore, I don't skydive, I don't fly a small plane. I don't play console games (though my wife does). I do paint and play with toy soldiers, and I do ride. I'm okay with my choices...

I don't have a yacht. I don't go on yachting forums whining about how the price of yachts deprives me of the ability to go yachting, and stating that I know enough about the yacht industry to suggest that if they lowered the cost of yachts to a point where I could have one, they'd make more money. That would just be stupid.

When I compare prices I like to compare what I am actually getting for my money, not how the dollar cost breaks down for time spent or whatever. With GW I am getting pieces of unfinished molded plastic. In my opinion this means they should be much cheaper than any of the other hobbies listed. Metal models should only be slightly more expensive.

Golf clubs (for reasons that escape me) are highly engineered pieces of equipment, with exotic materials formed with new manufacturing methods. They should be expensive.

Computers and consoles have some of the most advanced technology on the planet incorporated in them and one of the most complicated infrastructures ever devised by man go into producing them. They should be expensive.

Motorcycles involve many highly engineered components, made from expensive materials, and a whole industry of parts suppliers. Meaning many hundreds of people have been involved in making parts (usually) for any one bike. They should be expensive.

GW makes pieces of injection molded plastic (the cheapest kind of plastic) to a poor quality, in much the same way as has been done by thousands of other companies for at least 60 years. They should NOT be expensive.

Right, because no engineering or creative work went into a GW fig...

Whereas Motorcycles have been around for 100 years and still use essentially (oversimplification) the same parts...

The cost of making the product is largely irrelevant. Companies charge what the market will bear and if that doesn't recoup their costs and allow profit they just don't make it.

Your definition of engineering and mine must be really different. (I am an engineer by the way)

Motorcycles have to perform a function reliably. GW pieces of molded plastic have to sort of resemble something.

Edit: The cost of making things is not irrelevant, because it actually costs quite a bit of money to make most of the things involved in those other hobbies mentioned.

keezus wrote:@Redbeard: Uh. I do not understand your point, as people with grotesque amounts of disposable income who are able participate in the hobbies you listed are NOT GW'S TARGET DEMOGRAPHIC.

Hahahahaha!!!

asmith wrote:Your definition of engineering and mine must be really different. (I am an engineer by the way)

Motorcycles have to perform a function reliably. GW pieces of molded plastic have to sort of resemble something.

Edit: The cost of making things is not irrelevant, because it actually costs quite a bit of money to make most of the things involved in those other hobbies mentioned.

I'm an engineer too...

While the engineered aspects of a motorcycle need to perform reliably, the artistic parts are similar to the job that the mini designers and painters do. It's far easier to paint a motorcycle in a two-tone colour scheme than it is to paint a mini to 'eavy metal standards for use on boxtops. They're different issues, but they're both competing for your entertainment dollar. The margins on a motorcycle are considerably higher than on a miniature, too, and what sells more, motorcycles or baneblades?

Computers run on such small margins that it's often a surprise that they can afford to sell them. Netbooks for $250!? Madness, I tell you.

While you belittle what you get from GW, you have to understand that many people are involved in making the pieces of plastic and metal, and that these people have rather specialized skill sets, and minis aren't operating on huge margins. More of your dollars go towards the salaries of the sculptors, 'eavy metal team, and rules writers than goes towards the pieces of metal.

At the end of the day, despite how overly much you think you're paying, GW employees aren't exactly sleeping on giant piles of gold, and their annual reports don't show obscene profits (if they show profits at all, these last few years). Maybe you don't understand all the costs that go into their stuff.

Redbeard wrote:

whitedragon wrote:
EDIT: Also, owning a Harley or Car isn't exactly all that much more money then playing GW games if you factor in the Harley as an essential mode of transportation.

Ha ha ha ha ha. Sorry, I don't think I know more than one biker in Chicago for whom their bike is their essential mode of transportation. We have four months each year where you'd die on the ice. Nope, motorcycles are a hobby, at least for most of the other riders I know.

I live in St. Louis, and I know the weather to which you are referring. I know guys that drive motorcycles as much as the weather will let them (especially in Cali), and I myself am into cars, which I can drive everyday! Woot! My point was to point out that a mode of conveyance is almost a mandatory expense in the US, not a luxury hobby. You can really only compare the cost of "modding" or "pimpin" your ride to the actual cost spent towards the GW hobby.

Mainly I'm trying to say that GW isn't a cheap hobby, and it can be as expensive as you let it be, in the same way as any other hobby.

Motorcycles have to perform a function reliably. GW pieces of molded plastic have to sort of resemble something.

Actually, all they really have to do is satisfy their customer. How I define Engineering is irrelevant. What I was trying to express is there's probably roughly the exact same amount of "effort and design" in both products. That's all I meant by that.

Back to the topic... pretty much any hobby is about disposable income... and I can't really come up with any "hobby" that would be cheaper than GW in general. I'm assuming here that we're talking about someone building "an army" and not going spastic with 10 of them... GW might be expensive in the context of OTHER wargames, but not other hobbies.

Paintball? not cheaper
RC Cars? not cheaper
Strippers and Coke? not cheaper
Skydiving? No clue but assuming it's not cheaper.
Woodworking? nope
Auto restoration? nope
dirtbikes? nope

Nearly every Harley or sport bike I've ever seen is in addition to somebody's daily driver.

That makes the bike a hobby, same as golf clubs or go-kart.

Or GW minis.
____

Thunderjaw wrote:Actually, all they really have to do is satisfy their customer.

GW might be expensive in the context of OTHER wargames, but not other hobbies.

Auto restoration? nope

If I wanted to be a satisifed customer, I might have done just as well to spend my money on "full release erotic massage"...

In general, model-for-model GW is clearly cheaper than their most obvious, remaining direct competitor - PP.

I think auto restoration is quite possibly the most expensive "mainstream" hobby mentioned so far. That's easily a high 5-figure hobby if you're going to do it right (i.e. "matching numbers").

Nah... auto racing is slightly higher... I know some guys that do dragsters... I don't know how they're not bankrupt...

EDIT: You said "mainstream" and yeah, I think you're right as restoration is a LOT more mainstream than actual racing...

I can't think of anything more costly.

For those who feel that GW's prices are justified or represent good business decision making I question your business education.

GW in the past few years have generated fewer total sales indicating a shrinking customer base all the while they increased their prices at a pace that far outreaches the rate of inflation and their currency exchange rates are basically made up as they don't coincide with legitimate currency exchange rates.

There is a big problem with GW's business mindset and their price making decisions when your customer base shrinks itself more and more each year while you decide to continue to jack up the pricetags.

There's also a big problem in GW's pricing department when non-UK residents opt to buy from UK stores because they somehow save money from buying overseas than from stores within their own country. Also a big problem that GW and indie brick and mortar stores find themselves selling at full retail when you can get it significantly cheaper online.

Also a problem when Forgeworld kits are the same price as GW kits due to the currency/price problems in GW's business "plan".

Redbeard wrote:

I'm an engineer too...

While the engineered aspects of a motorcycle need to perform reliably, the artistic parts are similar to the job that the mini designers and painters do. It's far easier to paint a motorcycle in a two-tone colour scheme than it is to paint a mini to 'eavy metal standards for use on boxtops. They're different issues, but they're both competing for your entertainment dollar. The margins on a motorcycle are considerably higher than on a miniature, too, and what sells more, motorcycles or baneblades?

Computers run on such small margins that it's often a surprise that they can afford to sell them. Netbooks for $250!? Madness, I tell you.

While you belittle what you get from GW, you have to understand that many people are involved in making the pieces of plastic and metal, and that these people have rather specialized skill sets, and minis aren't operating on huge margins. More of your dollars go towards the salaries of the sculptors, 'eavy metal team, and rules writers than goes towards the pieces of metal.

At the end of the day, despite how overly much you think you're paying, GW employees aren't exactly sleeping on giant piles of gold, and their annual reports don't show obscene profits (if they show profits at all, these last few years). Maybe you don't understand all the costs that go into their stuff.

Painting? You do realize that the miniatures come unpainted right? From GW's own figures they make above 70% margin on product. What they spend it on I don't know but I assure you that the sculptors, rules writers and painters all together aren't making more than a cent per sprue sold. Realistically I can hire an artist to make a master for me for less than $500, and I can have someone paint it to heavy metal quality for considerably less than that. I think you are greatly overstating how much of the price goes into the creative functions. How many gys do creative stuff for GW? Maybe 20? These should be covered in the margin anyway. Edit: to answer your question, I think a baneblade outsells many makes of motorcyles, just probably not the most popular lines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thunderjaw wrote:

Motorcycles have to perform a function reliably. GW pieces of molded plastic have to sort of resemble something.

Actually, all they really have to do is satisfy their customer. How I define Engineering is irrelevant. What I was trying to express is there's probably roughly the exact same amount of "effort and design" in both products. That's all I meant by that.

This is nonsense. Almost no engineering at all goes into any GW product. You have one designer and a couple of modelmakers involved in the creation that's it. There is more effort in the design of any one part on something like a motorcycle (the working parts I mean) than anything GW produces. They are literally doing nothing more than making parts. There are no secondary processes at all. I'm guessing maybe there is 1/1000 of the design time in a GW army than in that of a motorcycle or a golf club.

asmith wrote:
Painting? You do realize that the miniatures come unpainted right?

Are you being deliberately obtuse? GW pays a highly talented team of painters to paint one or two of every new model they produce. They then use these painted models in their marketing material, in their codexes, and on the boxes, to show people what they can do with their unpainted miniatures.

From GW's own figures they make above 70% margin on product.

We're not using the word the same way here. When I say their margins, I don't mean the cost of the miniature over the cost of the material in the miniature, I mean the cost of the miniature over the amortized costs of the sculptors, painters, molds, and everything else that goes towards establishing the market price.

What they spend it on I don't know but I assure you that the sculptors, rules writers and painters all together aren't making more than a cent per sprue sold.

And you have data to back this up? I mean, if you're right, they're pulling a swindle as big as enron ever was. They're a publicly traded company, you can look at their results. And they're not making that much more than they spend. Now, I'll be the first to agree that their minis cost more than the materials that they're made of, but their only sales are of minis, and they've got a payroll to meet too.

Realistically I can hire an artist to make a master for me for less than $500, and I can have someone paint it to heavy metal quality for considerably less than that. I think you are greatly overstating how much of the price goes into the creative functions. These should be covered in the margin anyway.

Obviously you know more about their financial operations than I do. All I can see is their big-picture in their annual report. Perhaps you could share your inside knowledge with the rest of us. On the other hand, I think you're greatly underestimating these other costs. But, if you can realistically do it for less, what are you waiting for? Judging from this thread, there are a large number of gamers who are looking for cheaper alternatives, and if you can produce that, you've got an audience waiting for you.

Redbeard wrote:Set of Golf Clubs: $500-$5000 (I have no idea, but a quick web search was turning up individual clubs for $500)
Country Club Membership: $10,000+ /year

New Harley: $10,000-$20,000

Pool Table: $2500-$5000

Skydiving: $100/weekend

Plane Rental: $100-200/hour
Private Pilot Lessons: $6500

Do you guys really think GW is an expensive hobby?

I've got at least eight armies, all at least 4000 points, and I still haven't spent anywhere close to as much as I have on my motorcycles.

The bolded part of the quote is the reason you don't get it.

I play golf. My set of clubs cost $169. I can't even begin to afford a country club membership; I play at $20-30 public courses.

If I won the lottery, I wouldn't spend $20K on any motorcycle that didn't have Ducati on its side.

All the hobbies involving airplanes...just come on.

I do ballroom dance. For what it probably cost for any one of your 4000 point lists, I could get high quality private coaching sessions from competition winning professional dancers once per week for an entire year.

Yes, I think GW is an expensive hobby.

*edited for, well, editing errors*

Obtuse? You are the one comparing a one time cost to something that has to go on every part out the door. Apples and oranges...

I don't know what inside knowledge you think I have other than having to get things made as an engineer in the real world. The numbers for sculpting and painting are freely available on this forum and many others devoted to the miniatures hobby.

As a public company they do publish the margin. Since you don't know this is revenue - cost of sales/revenue, which should include development costs which covers everything involved in making the goods for sale, including painters, toolmakers, the tools, the designers etc.