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ok at the local club we have a house rule that was recently set in that changes o&g animosty very very well, and kind of sits better in the lore anyway. The agreed upon rule was to still role on the table and that on a 1 your unit does nothing special just the normal stuff move fight all that like normal but does take a roll on a d6 and suffers that many s3 hits but on a 2-6 you can have one of the following bonuses for one turn (units in combat do not roll just like old rolling )

ORC BONUSES: roll a 2-6 on a d6
-your charge rate is increased by half of what it normally is
-+1 strength on charge
-can march even if within 10 of enemy units but not if within 5
-do not need to take tests caused by fear or terror that turn
-may take a role that adds a d6 to their move is not neccesary to do full move

GOBLIN BONUSES: roll a 3-6 on a d6
-your charge rate is increased by half of what it normally is (fast cav only)
-+1ws
-+1 to hit with bows
-can march even if within 10 of enemy units but not if within 3
-may take a role that adds a d6 to their move is not neccesary to do full move
NIGHT GOBLIN BONUSES:
all goblin bonuses
+ may have + 1 to leadership this turn if within 12 of general

this helps orc out a lot no stupid sit there gak or werid 2 inch move towards enemy or 6 and leaving a huge gap in your flank

EXTRA RULES:
also waagh has been fixed to one roll on a d6 that your whole army moves forward on it (for example: you roll one d6 get a 6 and your whole army may move forward up to 6 not affecting move or anything charges are worked out after) also units do not have to move if you do no want them too

last but not least any unit accompained by black orc character or a unit of black orcs may take these bonuses without rolling

goblins as a side note get bonuses on a 3-6 nothing on a 2 and d6 s3 hits on a 1


fair, unfair please post response of what you think

I really don't see why people hate animosity. It's part of the army. Read the fluff, Orcs and Goblins are prone to fight, even with each other.

Plus, this is definitely unfair. Giving an army full benefits without any sort of repercussions is unfair.

dude o&g are horribly broken by animosty removing it all togther is probably best, but this is a fun way to solve it and all it really does is make the army more manouverable with a slight buff to stats which also raises your orc above a simple man when needed; also d6 str 3 hits 1 out of six times is a decent reprecussion if you ask me and giving a very unbalanced army a buff is fair.

In the fluff the orcs are regarded as a swarm of unstoppable green mass this far better regards that as most buffs are in manoueverbilty and the roll of a 1 simulates a brawl in the unit or the fighting between units

You weren't there in 6th ed.

Back in good old 6th ed. Animosity KILLED your models. If you failed a test, your troops would be shooting each other and hitting each other in CC. If anything, complain about that.

So you can't move for a turn? Congrats. You're not losing models, and it's a small nerf at best. How many games have I failed animosity tests for my entire army and still pulled through? Animosity can be crippling.

Also, S3 isn't going to kill an orc. 5+ to wound isn't that serious.

Overall, if you want an unstoppable horde go play Skaven if animosity is so serious

Cryonicleech wrote:I really don't see why people hate animosity. It's part of the army. Read the fluff, Orcs and Goblins are prone to fight, even with each other.

Plus, this is definitely unfair. Giving an army full benefits without any sort of repercussions is unfair.

Unless you are playing demons.

But seriously, animosity is part of the army. I love my O&G army, and I would not take that unique piece of flavor out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do agree with Cryo however. Back in the day, animosity was scary. And no Waaagh either. I think Orcs and Gobbos need some hefty fixes to bring in in par with the newer dexes, but removing animosity isn't the answer. And while I like OP's idea for altering the tables, I think you have gone too far the other way. The rule is called 'animosity' after all. Not, 'let's get enhanced because we aren't as good as newer dexes.' That would be a mouthful to say.

Armies have drawbacks - get used to it.

Unless you'd like to develop a similar table for my Dark Elves and their stupid Cold Ones, perhaps?

Name another adverse army-wide rule. There is none.

Stupid Cold Ones is a good example of a bad rule. People simply did not use them. The Dark Elves got a LD boost to help out. The LM have Cold Blooded to help out. And, that is just one unit. And people still don't use them. Orcs typically make 6-10 Animosity rolls each turn. How much would a magic item be worth if it could force your opponent to roll for Animosity for just one turn?

It’s not that the idea of Animosity is wrong, it’s been with Orcs forever, just like Daemons and not mixing Chaos Powers have always been with the Chaos Army and always will be. Orcs without Animosity would be as silly as the High Elves suddenly always striking first. Armies can never change, they must always be the same. The Bretonnian wedge can never be improved. Armies can’t get a boost without a severe drawback, or else the Dark Elves would be top tier or something. And, boy, hats off to ye olde Dark Elve players back in the days of the previous army book, they got used to the old army's drawbacks and never complained.

Seriously, the current version of Animosity does not work with the current version of WFB. The consequences of a flank charge on a low leadership army are devastating.

The Inability to March with Tomb Kings, though easily remedied, is still an adverse rule nonetheless.

Eternal Hatred has it's drawbacks, being forced to pursue, and a cunning opponent has set up flanks on me due to it.

Eye of The Gods Challenge can be a pain if your Unit Champion is forced to challenge a character.

Just saying.

OK, I get what you are saying. Now, to be accurate, while the Tomb King's inability to March is adverse, it’s not there to be remedied. They can move during the Magic Phase. That's an essential part of their army. If they could both March and move in the Magic Phase, they would be Broken. Animosity also makes it difficult for the Orcs to March. When even one unit refuses to move, the army usually can’t advance quickly without exposing a flank. Hatred, ItP, Frenzy, etc., can all have exploitable drawbacks. But, in general, they are either more beneficial, or part of a larger scheme that makes the army better. Animosity can mimic all of these “emotions.” Like Hatred and Frenzy, units can make uncontrolled moves towards the nearest visible enemy, into terrain, in front to other units, into charge range, exposing flanks. Like ItP, units cannot refuse a charge. But, there is typically not an upside. At least, not one the Orc player can plan on. Nor can a cunning player plan to exploit Animosity. Instead, both players simply endure it. It’s a poorly executed holdover rule that is so intrusive it alone determines the outcome of about a quarter of the Orc’s games.

who cares the dwarfs are going to kill them anyway hahahahaha

It seems like the proposed benefits might be a little bit much! It's a good idea to modify the rule, but maybe not by this much

Hi all.
My proposed alternative is all units currently affected by animosity rules, take a LD test at the start of the turn.

If they fail this test without scoring a double ,they count as 'squabbling'.

The unit takes hits as per current rules . Any casualties from this immediatley restore order and the unit behaves normally.
If no casualties are taken the unit continues to squabble untill the next turn hits are delt.

If the unit fails the LD test scoring a DOUBLE , the unit MAY make a standard move towards the nearest enemy.

When Waaagh is declared , and unit lead by the general or a Black orc MAY make a standard move towards the nearest enemy unit.
Other unit have to pass a LD test to allow them to make a Waagh move.

TTFN
Lanrak.

Wasn't this dead for a month???

INb4 Lock

That aside, OnG LD is standard at best and horrible at it's worst.

The rule is fine, IMHO.

How to fix animosity?

Make it a one-in-six chance of happening again (if you roll a one at the start of the turn, roll to see if they squabble, attack yourself, or rush forward again), or give Black Orcs their old Quell Animosity Rule that now only Az has. Preferably both. Sure, you don't get those extra D6 as often any more... but who cares? You can now actually reliably tell your units what to do every once in a while.

Too many times my game has been lost, because the unit chose to Squabble instead of charging the exposed rear of the Vampire Counts General's Unit or because I inflicted some 13 casualties to my unit of Big 'Uns before even reaching combat due to my Black Orc Big Boss smacking the unit dead due to quell animosity.

Live with Animosity it has been there since 4th ED.You just go with the rolls.It is why I like O&G better than the new Armies.They have a drawback that forces you to use tactics.

Octavius Widowmaker wrote:Live with Animosity it has been there since 4th ED.You just go with the rolls.It is why I like O&G better than the new Armies.They have a drawback that forces you to use tactics.

QFT. Hell yes.

Minsc wrote:How to fix animosity?

Make it a one-in-six chance of happening again (if you roll a one at the start of the turn, roll to see if they squabble, attack yourself, or rush forward again), or give Black Orcs their old Quell Animosity Rule that now only Az has. Preferably both. Sure, you don't get those extra D6 as often any more... but who cares? You can now actually reliably tell your units what to do every once in a while.

Too many times my game has been lost, because the unit chose to Squabble instead of charging the exposed rear of the Vampire Counts General's Unit or because I inflicted some 13 casualties to my unit of Big 'Uns before even reaching combat due to my Black Orc Big Boss smacking the unit dead due to quell animosity.

Like Dark Elf players never have that exact situation when their hardest-hitting units suffer from Stupidity? Or when various Frenzied units go charging after something irrelevant, and expose their flank to a hammer?

Situations like Animosity are part of the game. Either grow up and deal with it, or play another army. Animosity isn't broken: it has equal chance of helping as it does hurting.

I think your house rules would be way more fair if instead of a roll of 2-6 on a D6 they get that buff, it was only on a 6. So for this rule, on a 1 they would squabble, 2-5 they would act as normal, 6 they would get some sort of buff, +1str, etc. Then it could maybe reflect them either arguing amongst themselves unable to move (squabbling), or acting as normal, or on a 6, maybe the unit's leader, or a character nearby, or general, etc. would issue some sort of roar or yell to inspire his troop or nearby troop, therefore giving that unit a small buff. I think that would add a little more to the O&G army.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:Like Dark Elf players never have that exact situation when their hardest-hitting units suffer from Stupidity?

Dark Elves don't have said stupidity on every unit with a low enough leadership that they fail on average at least once very six turns. Even assuming so, their only unit that does not suffer from such is not a 13pt-per-model unit with WS4, Ld8, 5+ save.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:Or when various Frenzied units go charging after something irrelevant, and expose their flank to a hammer?

[ ]
[ 1 ]
____[ 2 ]
____[ ]

[ 3 ]
[ ]

Unit 3 is your Orcs, unit 2 a unit of something really nasty that you don't want to charge (say 20 Plague Bearers with a Herald), and Unit 1 is a nice juicy target (suppose a nice exposed Lord of Change). You roll a six = guess which unit you wound up charging this turn?

Frenzy forces you to charge, but it at the very least doesn't forcibly pivot you on the spot and make you charge a unit you don't want to while taking a juicy target out of your charge arc.

Lastly is the fact that you cannot cast spells when you fail animosity - the only other time you cannot cast spells in the game is when fleeing. Watching your 240pt Wizard Lord do nothing because his attached unit decided to brawl with itself three turns in a row loses its humor the tenth time it happens.

Manfred Von Drakken wrote:Situations like Animosity are part of the game. Either grow up and deal with it, or play another army. Animosity isn't broken: it has equal chance of helping as it does hurting.

I've played Orc and Goblins since the Storm of Chaos campaign (so a mix of 6th and 7th edition rulebooks). Animosity has always made games an enjoyable challenge. But when I can predictably go "Oh look, watch my five spider riders force your Chosen right into my army's flank by turn 3", "Watch my unit of Big 'Uns run right overtop a Fanatic and take 6 hits because of an animosity 6", or "Here comes a one, preventing my unit from making a break-out charge and instead taking a hit to at least one flank" over a period of five years, it starts to get annoying eventually. Losing once or twice due to wacky rolling is fine, I've laughed to it. Watching your battle plan crumble over and over because your well-aligned units refuse to do what you say is a completely different matter.

But then, my view may be skewed: I have rolling bad enough that I tend to roll 2/3 my dice as 1's or 2's for anything but leadership and hits caused on my units, and those 5's or 6's (I half-jokingly and half-seriously state that I cannot pass a leadership roll under an eleven in the store for a reason).

My answer to all of this is quite simple, stop complaining about the drawback to an army, if you don't like the rule, don't play the army. GW placed the rule there for a reason, taking it out isn't playing the army GW gave you and won't pass in a tournament, nor against most level-headed players. I sure as Hell wouldn't play against you if you told me you were going to use this garbage. If you can't get around animosity something is wrong with you, I've had several wins with my O&G, even when the melee units are standing there doing nothing and the bow units are moving forward 5-6 inches every turn.

Hate rolling 1's on Animosity?

Black Orc Bosses ftw.

Yep, I run an army of Grimgor's 'Ard Boyz, and most of my force is composed of Black Orcs with Giants for support. I have one unit of Big 'Uns and some Arrer Boyz, but that's it. Grimgor and the Black Orcs are the army's main body.

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:Hate rolling 1's on Animosity?

Black Orc Bosses ftw.

Problem: They can wind up causing more damage than good. In regular boyz (or, if for some odd reason, they're stuffed in a unit of Gobbos) they're unlikely to kill their own points outside some really shoddy rolling. With Boar Boyz though, it only takes two-or-three getting killed to suddenly make that Boss have killed his own points in his allies during one turn.

I feel a better thing to do may have been keep the old "Quell Animosity" rule, but make it a second 1 rolled caused the hits on a unit (or maybe even straight wounds). Current one is real bad if you roll a one on a "Waaagh!", as you take the D6 auto-wounds and then a further D6 S5 hits on the unit as the Warboss forces the unit to ignore the result (Or not, it's all up to interpretation as at-the-moment I do believe it was never FAQ clarified). Taking out the unit of Savage Orc Boarboy Big 'Uns that your character was attached to because of one bad roll never fun - you can wind up having wiped out over 200pts of your own army without the enemy touching it.

EDIT: I would run that army Cheese, but it's not legal any more at my GW so no-dice. The fact that you can only have one wizard at 2K points (and only one more for every K thereafter) means that you wind up having no magic and just using the guy as a Scroll Trolley. Then the fact that you're using T4 WS4 models with Heavy Armor and stuff, alongside Warmachines as your main shooting support, the army feels like Dwarves instead of Orcs (but with a tiny bit of speed added on).

Yeahhh I think the table youve proposed is a bit much. On a 2-6 reaping the benefits is too much. Maybe say 1 is the D6 wounds while 5-6 is the extra rule and 2-4 is normal as normal gets... But 2-6? come on... Way way too easy. If that was the case I wouldnt loose to my friends daemons all the time when i use my O&G... I'd say tweak out the 2-6 and your good... well... better

Removing animosity for Orks is like making Skaven technology stable; No fun!


//Edge

Gobbla wrote:Name another adverse army-wide rule. There is none.

There are lots, but they have more benefits then hinderences honestly. But I do agree orcs are effected more than other armies.

Dark Elves: Hatred, for the most part is awesome, however if you've every charged the flank of a DE chariot with a unit of skirmisher to purposefully lose, and force it to charge through terrain killing its self, that opponent may disagree.

Skaven: ranked leadership bump. Its great! Until you get flanked and your armies leadership is horrendous, but that's life as a skaven player: Life is cheap!

Tomb Kings/ Vampire counts: no marching, but with movement spells/ dance, and a fear causing army, i don't hear them complaying much.

Dwarves: always march/hatred of night goblins/orcs. No negates there, but its dwarves... movement 3 was enough of a negative.