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Rules question here on equipment.

If within a unit's standard, non-upgraded equipment, it says the unit is equipped with a Bolter, Bolt Pistol, and Close Combat Weapons, does that mean that a unit can switch between the two at will?

For instance, first round squad fires with bolters at 24". Next round, they don't fire (Or fire at 12 with pistols) and charge in with P/CC? Then, that would confer the +1 attack bonus. So, back to my question, can they switch between the two at will?

Let me ask you this:
What makes you think they cannot?

The answer is Yes they can, and Yes they get the +1 for having 2 CCW, but I am curious as to why you would think otherwise.

Yes.

They can also use the weapons on the same turn. For instance if you were to shoot your bolters and then on the same turn something charged you, you could use the bolt pistol + CW in the said combat. Infact I think you have no choice but to use it.

Obviously you couldnt shoot your bolters and then charge, but that is because of a wholly unrelated rule, i.e that you cannot charge after shooting rapid fire weapons.

I believe so.

They either fire the bolters and don't assault... or they fire their pistols and assault with the +1 bonus for charging and the +1 bonus for 2 ccws (pistol + ccw).

combo wrote:Yes.

They can also use the weapons on the same turn. For instance if you were to shoot your bolters and then on the same turn something charged you, you could use the bolt pistol + CW in the said combat. Infact I think you have no choice but to use it.

Obviously you couldnt shoot your bolters and then charge, but that is because of a wholly unrelated rule, i.e that you cannot charge after shooting rapid fire weapons.

Yup, even if they get charged they still get the +1 because they have 2 Close Combat Weapons.

My reason for asking was when I played long ago, I always was under the understanding it was one or the other and couldn't generally switch between the two. This works out great though, just need to add to a few models for proper WYSIWYG.

Food Store Hero wrote:My reason for asking was when I played long ago, I always was under the understanding it was one or the other and couldn't generally switch between the two. This works out great though, just need to add to a few models for proper WYSIWYG.

It used to be like that. It used to be that a model could only hold Two 1 Handed weapons or a 2 Handed Weapon and a Single Weapon.

Now you could have 65 Weapons and it doesn't make a difference.

Which is fun, if extreamly expensive, for inquisitors and other 'hunter characters.

Mars.Techpriest wrote:Which is fun, if extreamly expensive, for inquisitors and other 'hunter characters.

Actually, all Codexes with an Armoury have the old Weapon Limit. Newer Codexes without an Armoury are limited to 2 or 3 Weapons anyway.

WYSIWYG only applies to optional wargear. Compulsary gear does not need to be modelled.

Yes, they can switch between them at will.

Options could be:
A) Move, run in the shooting phase.
B) Stand still, shoot 24" with the bolter.
C) Move, shoot 12" rapid fire.
D) Move, shoot an Assault1 shot at 12" with the pistol, and then assault into CC with a +1 for the additional close combat weapon. Oh, and +1 in this assault phase for having assaulted, under normal conditions.

I see the 'Bolt Pistol' as as shots off the hip with a bolter in the melee rather than a side arm.

combo wrote:WYSIWYG only applies to optional wargear. Compulsary gear does not need to be modelled.

A Common misconception, but not true. What is true is that 99% of Players will give you some leeway on Compulsory wargear.

Belphegor wrote:I see the 'Bolt Pistol' as as shots off the hip with a bolter in the melee rather than a side arm.

That's insane. A bolter would be too unwieldy in close combat to use like so. A bolt pistol is the only actual way it makes sense, and it's being used to club people's skulls in or point-blank rounds fired off, though the former more often. Heck, even with True Grit the space wolves in all their awesomeness were unable to gain the almighty extra attack from wielding a bolter like so.

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:

Belphegor wrote:I see the 'Bolt Pistol' as as shots off the hip with a bolter in the melee rather than a side arm.

That's insane. A bolter would be too unwieldy in close combat to use like so. A bolt pistol is the only actual way it makes sense, and it's being used to club people's skulls in or point-blank rounds fired off, though the former more often. Heck, even with True Grit the space wolves in all their awesomeness were unable to gain the almighty extra attack from wielding a bolter like so.

Indeed, but back then you could shoot Rapid Fire weapons and then Assault, hence the restriction (you got to pick between 1 Shot and a Bonus attack [BP/CCW], or 2 Shots and no Bonus Attack [Bolter/CCW])

Lorgar's_Blessed: That's insane. A bolter would be too unwieldy in close combat to use like so. A bolt pistol is the only actual way it makes sense, and it's being used to club people's skulls in or point-blank rounds fired off, though the former more often. Heck, even with True Grit the space wolves in all their awesomeness were unable to gain the almighty extra attack from wielding a bolter like so.

Yes because bringing a short barreled carbine (ie Bolter) to bear against an opponent that is between 1-2m or while closing (ie firing as a pistol during the assaulting turn) is completely unreasonable....
A bolter is basically a sawed-off firing frangible solid slugs. Assault/Shock seems to be what the weapon was designed for.
The current rules actually reflect the background, which is nice.

Belphegor wrote:A bolter is basically a sawed-off firing frangible solid slugs. Assault/Shock seems to be what the weapon was designed for.

(o.0)

A Bolter fires Mini Rockets that penetrate then Explode inside the Target, not solid Slugs.

Gwar!:A Bolter fires Mini Rockets that penetrate then Explode inside the Target, not solid Slugs.

... right, the rocket (ie gyro-jet) is only really important to note when it comes to recoil and amount of time to get to the target (which is completely negligible in 40k outside of Heavy Weapons)
Bolts (which are solid) that don't penetrate would explode (with energy contained within it's shell) externally to the target (represented in the past by the 1/2 radius blast, circa RT)
A solid shell frangible breaks apart after a certain amount of force causes the solid joints the shear and snap, cause the round to explode from the force of the change of momentum (ie explodes due to external force) which could be internal or external to the target

- I wasn't saying that they ARE the same, I was saying that they FUNCTION (in regards to the damage done, and use) similarly enough that a parallel could be drawn.

Actually, the rockets don't help with the recoil at all, bolters still have powerful recoil.

The Revelator wrote:Actually, the rockets don't help with the recoil at all, bolters still have powerful recoil.

Which is why Commissars get Broken wrists every time they execute someone

They do help. They reduce it from take your entire arm of recoil to ouch there goes my shoulder muscles recoil

combo wrote:They do help. They reduce it from take your entire arm of recoil to ouch there goes my shoulder muscles recoil

Meh, I'll give you that, but people seem to think at my LGS that just because a bolter's main form of propulsion is the gyro-jets that they don't have recoil, when in reality, if that was the case then bolters would be completely and utterly useless up to about 50 feet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

The Revelator wrote:Actually, the rockets don't help with the recoil at all, bolters still have powerful recoil.

Which is why Commissars get Broken wrists every time they execute someone

Commissar wrist bones are made of plot, which is far stronger than adamantium.

No unit breaks when a commissar's on duty, not even wrists!

I was under the impression that only upgrades needed to be represented on models - this explains certain diorama poses of space marines that show no weapons on their bases, GW DA rhinos with NO GUNS [when the new rhino was released several were built weaponless], etc.

Spellbound wrote:I was under the impression that only upgrades needed to be represented on models - this explains certain diorama poses of space marines that show no weapons on their bases, GW DA rhinos with NO GUNS [when the new rhino was released several were built weaponless], etc.

Where do people get this Impression from? Whatever wargear the model has, you represent on it, regardless if it is stock or not. I thought that was common sense.

What Gwar! said. Yes, you see conversions where models don't have weapons but are doing something cool, but they're technically not WYSIWYG. As Gwar! noted earlier, though, the vast majority of people won't care, especially if the conversion is really cool.

Meh. GW's chaos space marines aren't WYSIWYG then. Heavy bolters, every plaguemarine, etc are all misrepresented and don't have all their weapons on them. I'll just represent important upgrades.

I modeled my latest CSM squad with bolters and chainswords to reflect their new wargear (also called uber grit).

I would never have a problem with an opponent not modeling compulsory wargear as long as I can see his list.
I don't feel like giving each marine a bolter, bolt pistol, close combat weapon, frag grenades and krak grenades.

Gwar! wrote:

The Revelator wrote:Actually, the rockets don't help with the recoil at all, bolters still have powerful recoil.

Which is why Commissars get Broken wrists every time they execute someone

i thought it was because in the grim darkness of the future, there is only soy milk... oh well.

either way, if the weapon loadout is compulsory, i don't require the opponent to have it modelled (like with the mentioned CSM). they basically get true grit for free!