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I have to vote for option 4, because the other options are short of the mark.

If there are two assaulting models versus a unit with two outside of difficult terrain and three inside difficult terrain, and the models outside of terrain are going to be the closest models, no difficult terrain test should be taken. But even if you're assaulting with five models, if those five models couldn't reach the the three models in cover for some reason--the two models outside of cover are 5.5" away, the models inside cover are 7.5" away--then they wouldn't have to make a difficult terrain test.

I think this is one of those situations where one would may have to stop and measure the movements of several models in order to determine if a rule applies. That rule being determining whether or not you would have to go into difficult terrain according to the assault rules.

Edit: Just to clarify, the assault rules require the assaulting player to prefer moving into contact with unengaged models, so most of the time that's going to mean that if the assaulted unit has models reachable only through difficult terrain, the assaulting unit is going to have to take a difficult terrain test. But it's not automatic and it's going to require pre-measuring under the "it's okay to premeasure to determine whether a rule or effect applies" AFTER the assault is declared but before the assaulting models are moved.

Kaaihn wrote:

solkan wrote:I have to vote for option 4, because the other options are short of the mark.

If there are two assaulting models versus a unit with two outside of difficult terrain and three inside difficult terrain, and the models outside of terrain are going to be the closest models, no difficult terrain test should be taken. But even if you're assaulting with five models, if those five models couldn't reach the the three models in cover for some reason--the two models outside of cover are 5.5" away, the models inside cover are 7.5" away--then they wouldn't have to make a difficult terrain test.

I think this is one of those situations where one would may have to stop and measure the movements of several models in order to determine if a rule applies. That rule being determining whether or not you would have to go into difficult terrain according to the assault rules.

Edit: Just to clarify, the assault rules require the assaulting player to prefer moving into contact with unengaged models, so most of the time that's going to mean that if the assaulted unit has models reachable only through difficult terrain, the assaulting unit is going to have to take a difficult terrain test. But it's not automatic and it's going to require pre-measuring under the "it's okay to premeasure to determine whether a rule or effect applies" AFTER the assault is declared but before the assaulting models are moved.

Tell me if I am summarizing your method correctly.

Roll difficult if closest to closest takes you through difficult. If all assaulting models can get to an unengaged model without going through difficult, no test is taken. If all enemy models outside difficult are taken and you still have unengaged assaulting models, you would measure to see if you are within 6" of the unoccupied enemy models in terrain. If they are within 6", you make a difficult check. If they are not, you don't make a check, and move your remaining unoccupied assaulters into base to base with already occupied enemy models outside difficult, or into support range.

Is that accurate to how you do it?

No, I'm saying that you can determine explicitly before conducting the assault move whether or not a difficult terrain test will be necessary because the difficult terrain test (if it is necessary) affects all of the assaulting models and you don't do strange things like take difficult terrain tests half way through the assault. Honestly, in almost every case it should be obvious whether or not one of the assaulting models is going to have to enter difficult terrain without resorting to using quarters and blank bases to mark positions.

The ugly, sloppy, messy method is to start moving your assault, realize that one of the assaulting models is going to enter difficult terrain, roll the difficult terrain, and retroactively adjust your assault movements or return to the starting position because the assault failed. The nice way of doing it is to look at the assaulting unit, figure out which model each of the assaulting models is going to engage, and at that point you'll know whether or not a difficult terrain test is necessary, and then take the test.

Gwar! wrote:

solkan wrote:No, I'm saying that you can determine explicitly before conducting the assault move whether or not a difficult terrain test will be necessary

This is highly incorrect. In order to do this, you must pre meausure the distance before you assault, which is explicitly forbidden on page 33:

Page 33 wrote:As you cannot measure the distance to the enemy before declaring the assault, if you misjudge the distance and the unit is unable to reach its target. then the unit does not move and that assault is ignored

Well, of course you don't measure the distance BEFORE you declare the assault. You measure the distances AFTER declaring the charge. If there is a question about whether or not the unit will enter difficult terrain, measure the questionable cases to determine whether the difficult terrain test is necessary. Page 33 prohibits measuring before declaring the assault, it doesn't prohibit measuring to determine whether a rule applies. After all assaults are declared, the measurements which I'm describing fall under measuring to determine the rules, because it is entirely deterministic that the closest assaulting model will move its effective movement rate towards the nearest model.

Edit: Edited for clarity in second sentence.

As far as I can tell, the point of contention here is whether or not the difficult terrain test, and entering difficult terrain, is optional for models after the first.

On the one side, there is the line on page 36 "If, following the rules for moving sassault models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving." and the second bullet point on page 34 "If possible, the model must move into base contact with an enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model."

On the other side, we have the quote "If a unit starts its move outside difficult terrain, the player must declare if he wants to try to enter difficult terrain as part of their move. If he chooses not to, the unit moves as normal but may not enter difficult terrain."

There should also be an additional point of contention, then, for the lines in the second paragraph on page 34, "Move [the first model] into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being assaulted, using the shortest possible route. Roll for difficult or dangerous terrain if necessary..."

Let's assume that there are two one model units, A and B, three inches apart with a 2" x 2" section of difficult terrain exactly between the two models. The question is whether or not model A is required to travel through the difficult terrain to assault B, or whether model A can go around the difficult terrain. So, does "shortest possible path" mean "shortest possible path on the board" or "shortest possible path using all available options".

I assume that if the 2" x 2" section was impassible, it couldn't be part of the shortest path. But now I'm uncertain whether or not the difficult terrain test for the first model is optional if an alternate route exists.

Kaaihn wrote:

solkan wrote:Let's assume that there are two one model units, A and B, three inches apart with a 2" x 2" section of difficult terrain exactly between the two models. The question is whether or not model A is required to travel through the difficult terrain to assault B, or whether model A can go around the difficult terrain. So, does "shortest possible path" mean "shortest possible path on the board" or "shortest possible path using all available options".

I assume that if the 2" x 2" section was impassible, it couldn't be part of the shortest path. But now I'm uncertain whether or not the difficult terrain test for the first model is optional if an alternate route exists.

Great question! My take on this is, if you declare an assault but don't declare moving in to difficult, the shortest possible route for closest to closest would be up to your assault distance without entering difficult. If there is no possible route around the difficult for closest to closest though, the assault does not automatically fail because there is a special provision that forces you to enter the difficult. The possibilities for what your closest to closest route could be have just changed, so now try and get to B2B through the difficult. If you still can't make it, now you failed.

Ah, but you can't have it both ways. If you can't go into difficult terrain unless you declare it, then you don't have the second chance to decide whether to make the difficult terrain test. If the first model gets a second chance to decide whether to enter difficult terrain, then all of the other models can get a second chance by the same reasoning.

Kaaihn wrote:

solkan wrote:

Kaaihn wrote:

solkan wrote:Let's assume that there are two one model units, A and B, three inches apart with a 2" x 2" section of difficult terrain exactly between the two models. The question is whether or not model A is required to travel through the difficult terrain to assault B, or whether model A can go around the difficult terrain. So, does "shortest possible path" mean "shortest possible path on the board" or "shortest possible path using all available options".

I assume that if the 2" x 2" section was impassible, it couldn't be part of the shortest path. But now I'm uncertain whether or not the difficult terrain test for the first model is optional if an alternate route exists.

Great question! My take on this is, if you declare an assault but don't declare moving in to difficult, the shortest possible route for closest to closest would be up to your assault distance without entering difficult. If there is no possible route around the difficult for closest to closest though, the assault does not automatically fail because there is a special provision that forces you to enter the difficult. The possibilities for what your closest to closest route could be have just changed, so now try and get to B2B through the difficult. If you still can't make it, now you failed.

Ah, but you can't have it both ways. If you can't go into difficult terrain unless you declare it, then you don't have the second chance to decide whether to make the difficult terrain test. If the first model gets a second chance to decide whether to enter difficult terrain, then all of the other models can get a second chance by the same reasoning.

Nobody gets a second chance to decide. If you decide not to, you may be forced to whether you like it or not for the closest to closest because there is a special rule governing that. That rule does not extend to the rest of the models though; it is only a special condition governing the closest to closest model.

There is one time to check if you are forced to roll difficult, and that is closest to closest having no other path available. The rest of the models are bound by the first ones result. If he moves without choosing or being forced to test difficult, they can't step in to difficult, and there is nothing that would force them to on a model by model basis. They also cannot then choose to test for difficult even if they want to; that opportunity has passed.

The exact same logic applies to the first moving model as applies to the second and subsequent models--there exists a path which would be possible if the unit took a difficult terrain test. If it is necessary for the first model to enter difficult terrain because it is possible to do so, whether or not the player wishes to, then it is necessary for all of the models to enter difficult terrain because it is possible to do so, whether or not the player wishes to.