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I've decided to expand on what I have for my Death Guard and build a Daemons army. The local gaming scene is pretty competitive so I need this list to be pretty tough, but still have units I like. What I have from my DG that's carrying over is the 2 Daemon Princes, the Soulgrinder, Great Unclean One and Plaguebearers. I also have 40 Bloodletters, but with the list as it is I was only able to fit 30 at 2k points.

The upside of this army is that it will be relatively cheap to build, aside from the Bloodcrushers. The downside is to be WYSIWYG units like the Daemon Princes, which have wings, need expensive upgrades like Flight and Iron Hide to match their wargear as CSM daemon princes.

Anyway, I'd appreciate feedback on what I could change or alter and also how to split up the two waves.



HQ

Great Unclean One - 160

Blood Thirster - 250

Elites

Bloodcrushers(4) - 170
- Fury of Khorne

Fiends(2) - 60

Troops

Bloodletters(15) - 250
- Fury of Khorne

Bloodletters(15) - 250
- Fury of Khorne

Plaguebearers(10) - 175
- Chaos Icon

Nurglings(8 ) - 104

Heavy Support

Daemon Prince- 210
- Flight
- Mark of Nurgle
- Iron Hide
- Unholy Might

Daemon Prince- 210
- Flight
- Mark of Nurgle
- Iron Hide
- Unholy Might

Soul Grinder - 160
- Tongue

Total: 1,999 Points

Well, I'd take two packs of Plague bearers with Icons. This will help you to get a resilient unit on the board in first turn. For this, you simply need to assign one pack of Plague bearers to each faction.

Cadaver wrote:
HQ

Great Unclean One - 160

Blood Thirster - 250

Either of these is good. Both, however, is probably not. GUO is good as is. Bloodthirster really benefits from the extra 20 points for +1 STR, as it allows him to insta-splat stuff.

I do believe that one greater daemon has a place in a list, as there are things that greater daemons are just better against than anything else in the list. But, for point-for-point generic killyness, look at chariots. Bare-bones khorne chariots run 85 points, and have a solid statline + power weapon, and for a few points more can get +1 s. Bare-bones tzeentch chariots can provide some needed mobile AP3 fire.

Elites

Bloodcrushers(4) - 170
- Fury of Khorne

For a few points more, buy them a musician and an icon. It both adds to their survivability (wound splitting), and it's one of the best places for an icon in your list. Without icons, you can get screwed on deep strikes.

Fiends(2) - 60

Go with a full 6, or leave them home. I love my fiends, they're an amazing unit, but they, like other renders, win because of the number of attacks they can throw. With two, you lose one (or both!?) to shooting before you can assault, and then are left with only six attacks and a 5+ invul save. That doesn't end well.

For a cheap-but-killy elite choice, three flamers (105 points) can do an enormous amount of damage too.

Troops

Bloodletters(15) - 250
- Fury of Khorne

Bloodletters(15) - 250
- Fury of Khorne

Plaguebearers(10) - 175
- Chaos Icon

Nurglings(8 ) - 104

This looks decent - though I'd worry about what you'll do when you need to hold more than one objective. Will you have your expensive bloodletters sit on the objective, with your opponent shooting them a bit at a time, or abandon the objective? I believe that the most competitive way to run daemon troops is to have one unit that are objective babysitters (that's your plaguebearers), at most one unit of assault guys (bloodletters), and the rest pink horrors.

Pink horrors can put out a lot of fire, and they can make an impact the turn they land. They can threaten enemy transports with their bolt-of-tzeentch, and give you at least a little shot at handling bigger vehicles, as they're AP1. If you need to hold more than one objective, they can sit on one and still take their shots, contributing to the battle.

Heavy Support
2x Daemon Prince- 210
- Flight
- Mark of Nurgle
- Iron Hide
- Unholy Might

If you're taking the MoN, why run unholy might instead of noxious touch? It's half the price, let's you wound everything on a 2+, with a reroll against most targets. You give up one point against armour, but 5+2d6, with 4 attacks, is still decent.

Soul Grinder - 160
- Tongue

I used to like the tongue attack, as a anti-vehicle shot. Problem is, he only hits half the time, and with a range 24", if you run instead, you're only a turn removed from smacking the vehicle with 4 S10 CC attacks. You do seem weak on anti-armour, but that's going to be the case with a daemon army. Bolt of Tzeentches in a couple of smaller pink horror units could make up that difference, and allow the soulgrinder to either run cheaper, or to use the phlegm (which i prefer, as it lets him land further from the action and still contribute, thereby not cluttering your landing zones)
Total: 1,999 Points

Wow thanks for the point by point, Redbeard!

I wanted this to kind of be a Daemonzilla list so that's why I want two Greater Daemons, plus I have plans for a cool Bloodthirster conversion. I've read alot about the effectiveness of chariots, and seen yours btw, but I can't pass up the modeling fun of converting a bloodthirster!


Anyway, I'll switch a few things around and post up a revised list.

Hi there. I've got some thoughts on the list (what am I saying, I've got LOTS of thoughts)

You don't have any blue in your list. I think that is suicidal.

You have one tongue, which i really like. Don't get dismayed by the BS3. Its just funny math. A BS3 railgun gets .34 pens per shot with +1 to damage rolls against armor 12. A BS4 lascannon gets .34 pens per shot also, but without the +1 to damage. so think of it like a BS4 lascannon with a great damage roll.

I agree that landing and running is an option that is useful, but not when your whole army does that.

Basically, what I don't like about a tzeentchless army is that you are going to get your wave, deep strike, and then say "go". Your opponent will not be interfered with at all. His gameplan is perfectly intact, he has had to make zero adjustments, he'll jut have to pick your biggest threat to him, kill it, then start working on the next biggest threat.

I'm not some kind of 40k bad ass, but I've managed to actually table demon armies without losing anything beyond one or two chimeras, when they didn't have shooting. I screen my slower vehicles from charges with my faster devildogs, you'll need 6s to hit them, and I'll just take your big guys apart.

However you land with 4+ bolt of tzeentch and a tongue or two, and the game goes from easy as pie to something very intimidating for me. This goes for my mechanized IG and for my mech dark angels. My good friend somnicide took a nearly all red demon army to tourneys last year and did extremely well with it. Demons and foot orks were such tyrants last year that people just got sick of it and went mechanized. Without land and shoot capabilities, I think demons are severely disadvantaged.

Of the tzeentch stuff, I like the horrors the least. I love heralds on chariots with soul devourer and bolt. I like fatewaever or a lord of change, I love 3-4 flamers with bolt, and I think every single demon army should start with 3 soul grinders with tongue, 3 sniper princes with bolt and breath or some combination of the three.

Fiends of slaanesh, bloodcrushers, bloodletters, plaguebearers, and the GUO are also excellent units and can exist in harmony with some shootier elements.

Shep wrote:
You have one tongue, which i really like. Don't get dismayed by the BS3. Its just funny math. A BS3 railgun gets .34 pens per shot with +1 to damage rolls against armor 12. A BS4 lascannon gets .34 pens per shot also, but without the +1 to damage. so think of it like a BS4 lascannon with a great damage roll.

I agree, it's as good against A12 as a lascannon. Thing is, you can get cheap bolts of tzeentch in horror squads, and they can handle A12 well enough. If your one S10 shot is BS3, it's not going to do that well against bigger armour, which is theoretically the need for the bigger gun. It's also like a lascannon but with only a 24" range, and I think that the biggest thing that the phlegm attack has going for it is the 36" range, which allows the soul grinders to deep strike further away from the opponent than the big cluster of models who all want to be within 24".

Basically, what I don't like about a tzeentchless army is that you are going to get your wave, deep strike, and then say "go". Your opponent will not be interfered with at all. His gameplan is perfectly intact, he has had to make zero adjustments, he'll jut have to pick your biggest threat to him, kill it, then start working on the next biggest threat.

Exactly.

Of the tzeentch stuff, I like the horrors the least. I love heralds on chariots with soul devourer and bolt. I like fatewaever or a lord of change, I love 3-4 flamers with bolt, and I think every single demon army should start with 3 soul grinders with tongue, 3 sniper princes with bolt and breath or some combination of the three.

But that stuff gets expensive fast, and isn't scoring. 3 Flamers with bolt run you 135, and I don't think the bolt is a complementary weapon to their devastating templates. Anyone who has ever faced them won't let them get close if you land too far away, so you're aiming for a suicide hit anyway.

Sniper princes with bolt + anything are at least a 160 point investment. They hit a lot, but damn if they're not expensive.

Horrors, they're only BS3, but you can get small squads for 95 points, with bolt (and one at 100 with changeling). They're scoring units to boot. And, with a heavy enough attack wave, they're rarely threatened unless you've already lost the game. Chariots of Tzeentch are a good option, they're fast enough to get their bolts onto the sides, and sometimes rear, of enemy tanks. They can also tarpit dreadnoughts fairly well if needed, preventing the dreads from typing up your crushers.

I don't really disagree with you (well, maybe about the bolt flamers) - I've had success with tzeentch princes, and definitely with the chariot. But I think horrors are probably the best troop choice in the daemon codex for spamming, short of plaguebearers in an epidiemus list. Their ability to still affect the game while camping an objective makes them more valuable to me than the rest of the options.

Redbeard wrote:

Shep wrote:
You have one tongue, which i really like. Don't get dismayed by the BS3. Its just funny math. A BS3 railgun gets .34 pens per shot with +1 to damage rolls against armor 12. A BS4 lascannon gets .34 pens per shot also, but without the +1 to damage. so think of it like a BS4 lascannon with a great damage roll.

I agree, it's as good against A12 as a lascannon. Thing is, you can get cheap bolts of tzeentch in horror squads, and they can handle A12 well enough. If your one S10 shot is BS3, it's not going to do that well against bigger armour, which is theoretically the need for the bigger gun. It's also like a lascannon but with only a 24" range, and I think that the biggest thing that the phlegm attack has going for it is the 36" range, which allows the soul grinders to deep strike further away from the opponent than the big cluster of models who all want to be within 24".

I've never seen 24" be a problem for a deep striker. If you don't want to take the shot, because you don't have a good one, the run option is still there. I know that is pretty silly to say, but to me, the 'option' of shooting the tongue is worth 25 points. If you get a wave filled with bolts of tzeentch, and you aren't worried about AV12 or AV13, then go ahead and run. If your wave isn't filled with shots, or your opponent has 13 armor 12 vehicles... take the shot.

Redbeard wrote:

Shep wrote:
Of the tzeentch stuff, I like the horrors the least. I love heralds on chariots with soul devourer and bolt. I like fatewaever or a lord of change, I love 3-4 flamers with bolt, and I think every single demon army should start with 3 soul grinders with tongue, 3 sniper princes with bolt and breath or some combination of the three.

But that stuff gets expensive fast, and isn't scoring. 3 Flamers with bolt run you 135, and I don't think the bolt is a complementary weapon to their devastating templates. Anyone who has ever faced them won't let them get close if you land too far away, so you're aiming for a suicide hit anyway.

Sniper princes with bolt + anything are at least a 160 point investment. They hit a lot, but damn if they're not expensive.

Horrors, they're only BS3, but you can get small squads for 95 points, with bolt (and one at 100 with changeling). They're scoring units to boot. And, with a heavy enough attack wave, they're rarely threatened unless you've already lost the game. Chariots of Tzeentch are a good option, they're fast enough to get their bolts onto the sides, and sometimes rear, of enemy tanks. They can also tarpit dreadnoughts fairly well if needed, preventing the dreads from typing up your crushers.

I don't really disagree with you (well, maybe about the bolt flamers) - I've had success with tzeentch princes, and definitely with the chariot. But I think horrors are probably the best troop choice in the daemon codex for spamming, short of plaguebearers in an epidiemus list. Their ability to still affect the game while camping an objective makes them more valuable to me than the rest of the options.

I put some likes and some loves in that list. I recommend the 'loves' but the likes are just things that I think can work for some people. I prefer fiends and bloodcrushers to flamers absolutely. flamers do have that, decent against tanks sick against infantry dual purpose thing going on. Whereas the other two are just straightforward beaters. I probably should erevise flamers to 'like' and not 'love'

Sniper princes are points equivalent to soul grinders with an upgrade. I see them as interchangeable (whether or not fateweaver is in the list is really the determinant).

Horrors with fateweaver are excellent, and Somnicide is slowly selling me on them. I'm going to defer to him, and you... as you guys are both demon players (and smart ones) and I haven't seen anything i don't like about them really. I had a soft spot for plaguebearers as the obvious troop choice, and bloodletters have consistently bucked my low expectations as well.

And you seem to have nailed all the things the chariot does. To people with no XP with them... they look ok on paper, maybe a little potential... They are VERY similar to deffkoptas in that once you get them on the table, they just make you go 'WTF' So much output, for such an appropriate cost. Where deffkoptas are offensively front-loaded, chariots are more slow to get their kills, but stupid hard to kill, very utilitarian, and available en masse.

Good stuff.