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I was playing a buddy of mine, tau player, and he claimed if he sent his stealthsuits to ground they couldn't be moved by lash since they were already pinned. I really hope he is mistaken, I wouldn't think you could deny the use of a power with such a voluntary move.

From the GW 5th edition Rulebook FAQ:

Q. Can a unit go to ground if affected by attacks that do not cause wounds (e.g. lash of submission)?

A. You might, but such a move would be foolish, as it would have no effect other than stopping the
unit from doing anything of its own volition in its next turn. The rules are quite clear that anything
the enemy inflicts onto the unit works normally, so in the example above, the Lash of Submission
would still work normally onto the unit and the unit would still be ‘gone to ground’ in its next
turn. In other words, the only benefit of going to ground is to increase a unit’s cover save, so if you
don’t have to take any cover saves (e.g. you have been hit by a flamer), don’t bother!

You might want to check all the FAQ's for the relevant codexes, and the main rulebook when wonky things come up.

It might just be answered there.

There are also already about 30 threads on Lash in YMDC that address this question as well.

I looked about 10 back and didn't see anything there. And while his unit can't do anything next turn, he interprets this as meaning it wouldn't be a legal move for him to go anywhere since he has gone to ground, meaning they aren't any closer to my assault units, nor are they in a nice little clump for my plasma cannons/blastmasters. therein lies my question. For example if I roll over a 6 I can move his infantry farther then they would normally be allowed.

He is incorrect.

What the FAQ answer above means is this:

1) You cash lash on his unit.
2) He says 'they go to ground'
3) You say 'ok'. Then proceed to move his unit as per the lash rules. Clumping them up, pulling them closer, pushing them away, whatever.
4) His next turn, his unit can't do anything at all, because they're gone to ground (he would have needed to pass a pinning test anyway, but since he went to ground, he is effectively pinned).

There is NOTHING about going to ground that prevents Lash working exactly as it is described, hence the part of the answer that says ".. the Lash of Submission would still work normally onto the unit and the unit would still be 'gone to ground'..."

Hope that helps.

I tried to searchy some of the older threads, and had just as much trouble. It might be under a 'gone to ground' or pinning thread. Don't worry, though, the above should be sufficient.

Good luck!

thank you very much for your help man, I was bumming a lot about that.

"whilst it has gone to ground the unit may do nothing of its own volition, but will react normally if affected by enemy actions"

seems awfully clear even before the FAQ to me...

Drunkspleen wrote:"whilst it has gone to ground the unit may do nothing of its own volition, but will react normally if affected by enemy actions"

seems awfully clear even before the FAQ to me...

It is, but GW don't FAQ hard questions

Actually if you check the most recent chaos faq the question is asked can a unit be affected more than once by lash of submission and the answer is yes provided the unit does not fail it's pinning check so they are saying that if the unit is pinned it may not be lashed thus if a unit goes to ground and voluntarily pins itself it may therefore not be moved by lash of submission.

Aftersong wrote:Actually if you check the most recent chaos faq the question is asked can a unit be affected more than once by lash of submission and the answer is yes provided the unit does not fail it's pinning check so they are saying that if the unit is pinned it may not be lashed thus if a unit goes to ground and voluntarily pins itself it may therefore not be moved by lash of submission.

No its moved then becomes pinned (/GTG)

Tri wrote:

Aftersong wrote:Actually if you check the most recent chaos faq the question is asked can a unit be affected more than once by lash of submission and the answer is yes provided the unit does not fail it's pinning check so they are saying that if the unit is pinned it may not be lashed thus if a unit goes to ground and voluntarily pins itself it may therefore not be moved by lash of submission.

No its moved then becomes pinned (/GTG)

No pinned units cannot be lashed per the chaos FAQ

Pinning is resolved prior to the effect of a attack unless the attacking weapon has the Sniper.

Aftersong wrote:Actually if you check the most recent chaos faq the question is asked can a unit be affected more than once by lash of submission and the answer is yes provided the unit does not fail it's pinning check so they are saying that if the unit is pinned it may not be lashed thus if a unit goes to ground and voluntarily pins itself it may therefore not be moved by lash of submission.

Protip: Rules are fun

After the enemy has rolled to hit and wound against any of your units, but before you take any saves or remove any models, you can declare that the unit is going to ground.

Show me 1 point during Lash of Submission where it is After you have Rolled to hit and Wound but before any saves are taken.

Oh Snap! There isn't one
So, no, you cannot GTG to avoid Lash, because you cannot actually choose to GTG. You CAN however GTG against normal Shooting to avoid being Lashed later on in the Shooting Phase. A Smart player gets around this by Lashing First (like any Semi Competent Player would, considering they Need you bunched up for the Oblits)

Aftersong wrote:

Tri wrote:

Aftersong wrote:Actually if you check the most recent chaos faq the question is asked can a unit be affected more than once by lash of submission and the answer is yes provided the unit does not fail it's pinning check so they are saying that if the unit is pinned it may not be lashed thus if a unit goes to ground and voluntarily pins itself it may therefore not be moved by lash of submission.

No its moved then becomes pinned (/GTG)

No pinned units cannot be lashed per the chaos FAQ

But remember that being pinned, as described on page 31, is not the same thing as going to ground, as described on page 24. All pinned units have gone to ground, but a unit which has gone to ground is not necessarily pinned.

Edit: Remember that the rulebook FAQ says that if a unit tried to GTG versus the Lash, it would be moved and then revert to GTG status.

See I disagree in the general faq is says you can go to ground against things that don't cause wounds but it generally wouldn't do anything however in the case of lash being faq'ed to disallow it's use vs pinned units it would in fact be useful.

secondly going to ground and being pinned are the exact same thing.

pg 31 of the 5th ed rule book says pertaining to pinning and i quote "if the unit fails the test, it is immediately forced to go to ground (as described on page 24)"

in this case the test they are referring to is a pinning test

so if you fail your pinning test from lash you go to ground and since the Chaos Faq says that pinned units may not be lashed units that have gone to ground may therefore not be lashed.

Aftersong wrote:See I disagree in the general faq is says you can go to ground against things that don't cause wounds

The FAQ is wrong. Simple, isn't it. This isn't the only case where a Official GW FAQ (which are not hard rules changes) try to change or make up rules, so don't sweat it. However, Gone to Ground and Pinned are the same thing, as you correctly said.

Gwar! wrote:The FAQ is wrong. Simple, isn't it. This isn't the only case where a Official GW FAQ (which are not hard rules changes) try to change or make up rules

...

......

.........

Anyone else have a problem with this statement?

The Errata have the same level of 'authority' as the main rules, as they effectively modify the published material. They are 'hard' material. It is a good idea to read them and be aware of their existence, but luckily there are very few of them for each book.

The FAQs on the other hand are very much 'soft' material. They deal with more of a grey area, where often there is no right and wrong answer - in a way, they are our own 'Studio House Rules'.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=2&aId=3400019

All the FAQ is are a bunch of House Rules some idiots at Nottingham (or some very Smart Yaks) use. They are no more Official than the INATFAQ. The Errata are official however.

Well then if the errata is official then you can officially go to ground without taking wounds as is stated in the 5th ed rulebook errata section.

Aftersong wrote:Well then if the errata is official then you can officially go to ground without taking wounds as is stated in the 5th ed rulebook errata section.

No, it isn't. There are a Grand total of Four erratas:

Page 41 – Multiple Combats, Attacking.
Page 42 – ‘A normal and a special weapon’, firstparagraph.
Page 46 – Morale while falling back.
Page 71 – Ramming a skimmer.

Not to mention, we now have two FAQ's that are contradictory. Chaos FAQ says "You cannot Lash Pinned/GTG Units", the Rulebook says you can. Which one is right?

Neither is right because neither is official rules changes, just house rules, so it is up to you/tournament organiser to decide.

ok got me there I looked to quickly saw eratta scrolled down and failed to see the faq headline.

Though they really aren't contradictory it says you can go to ground vs things that don't cause wounds using lash as an example stating it will still resolve as usual at which point you go to the chaos faq, the lash resolves but is unable to move the unit as it is pinned/gone to ground.

Gwar has it spot on here folks (keeping in mind his discussion on the limitations of FAQ vs Errata)

Using the Core FAQ as a guide...
Q. Do psychic shooting attacks grant cover saves?
A. Yes, as long as they cause wounds. Cover saves are taken against wounds caused by psychic shooting attacks, not against any other ‘weirder’ effects of the psychic power.

In combination with, from the same FAQ:

Q. Can a unit go to ground if affected by attacks that do not cause wounds (e.g. lash of submission)?
A. You might, but such a move would be foolish, as it would have no effect other than stopping the unit from doing anything of its own volition in its next turn. The rules are quite clear that anything the enemy inflicts onto the unit works normally, so in the example above, the Lash of Submission would still work normally onto the unit and the unit would still be ‘gone to ground’ in its next turn. In other words, the only benefit of going to ground is to increase a unit’s cover have, so if you don’t have to take any cover saves (e.g. you have been hit by a flamer), don’t bother!

Makes things very clear.

Be pinned and go to ground all you like, you can be lashed without limt.

The CSM FAQ is counter to this view, and its up to the players/tournament organisers to determine which has priority. On the basis that a) LOS is a harsh power and cheap for its effect, and b) codexes override main rulebook so why not codex faq override main FAQ, i would swing towards applying the CSM FAQ. It somewhat limits the utility of LoS (and would be great for guard who can 'get back in the fight' afterwards!).

Mars.Techpriest wrote:Pinning is resolved prior to the effect of a attack unless the attacking weapon has the Sniper.

Wait.. What?? How can this be right? I shoot at you with my battlecannon(lets assume for a sec I hit), you take a pin test and fail or save, then my shell explodes in the middle of your squad killing 3 guys. This dosent seem right ot me.

Well, battle cannons don't cause pinning in the first place, so it's a moot point. Only barrage weapons and "pinning" weapons cause pinning. And either way the time you take those tests is after a casualty is caused, unless stated otherwise. So no, you'd have to kill people, then make the test.


In this case I'd go with the GW FAQ. Not that you can go to ground in response to lash [you can't, unless it's as part of a unit that's firing simultaneously] in the first place, but simply that after you're pinned, you can still be moved around by lash just fine.

The rulebook has even been quoted as saying that the unit may not voluntarily do anything, but will respond to enemy actions normally - like being lashed.