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Ok, so I've been doing some pondering on how to set up Termies so they'll be the best, or atleast a huge threat.
For this thread, I'm talking about Chaos Terminator Champions, specifically with Dual-LC

So, the low down on the Icons are as such

Khorne; Extra attack per model, giving each dual lc termie champ an additional attack, giving them 6 each on the charge, which can potentially wipe an entire squad in (hopefully) 2 assault phases (yours, then their's) and would always need a LR dedicated transport

Nurgle: +1 to their Toughness, making them T5, and in return making them much harder to kill. Only 5 attacks on the charge, which is still good with re-roll wounds and can still wipe most enemy squads in 2 phases, while surviving longer. they would feel more comfortable if they had to footslog across the field, as opposed to other Marks.

Tzeentch: +1 to their Invuln save. Potentially worthless against most enemy fire/enemy assault squads. The only time this would help at all would be against AP2 weapons and MC's.

Slaanesh: +1 to Initiative, giving them I5, which would make them go before the majority of units in the game. This would help a lot if you face a lot of I4 models, or even I5 (so you still get all your attacks, incase one dies) but would become moot once you face an I6+ model

Chaos Glory: +1 to Strength, making them S5, which would make it easier for them to wound, but given Dual LC's benefits, S5 wouldn't help as much as one of the other marks.


So my question is; after seeing this analysis, which Mark would you use for a squad of Dual LC Terminator Champions?
I'm personally debating between Khorne and Nurgle

Simply talking about CSM terminators with LCs is actually a very narrow way to think about terminators. Since they are useless without shooting the only way to use them is to give them a landraider as a transport. Deepstriking them would mean that your opponent can move out of the way or charge/shoot them at his leisure before they can have any impact. Footslogging them is pointless because they have no guns, and terminators are easy to avoid on foot. I know lots of LC attacks is very apealing, but realistically loss of ability to shoot stuff is to much. Getting into combat with walkers and T8+ creatures also presents a problem because you will have no way of winning such a combat.

That said I will help you.

Since you will only be using them in a LR, because every other method is folly, then icons that increace their durability lose value. Most of their power is on the charge so you will want icons that really support that.

Khorne is the obvious first choice. Against every foe appart from GK terminators khorne will do the most damage. Most infantry that has power weapons available is I4 or less, so you dont have to worry that you will survive to make your attacks. The exception to this is eldar and DE, but at S3 their ability to wound you isnt too good (DE Archon + retinue should be avoided and shot because they will destory you in combat).

Slaanesh is also good if you feel that you must kill your enemies before they stike back. As I said before most infantry will stike at the same time or later than you so this wont be an issue most of the time.

Nurgle is good when getting counter charged by hordes, but this is mostly the only time because you have protection before the charge and will want to be in combat as much as possible. It is also good when fighting SM/CSM commanders with power weapons.

Tzneetch is mostly good for Dsing or footslogging terminators expecting a lot of AP2 fire. The amount of stuff in combat that ignores armour in combat is limited. Take if you are expecting lots of MCs, LC terminators or DE, but it isnt worth it the rest of the time.

Where are you getting that IoCG gives you +1S? The only time anything in the CSM codex gets +1S is unmarked lords with demon weapons. IoCG only allows you to re-roll failed morale tests, otherwise it would be the best choice by miles. Anything with that many S5 power weapon attacks would be gold-dust and completely broken every which way. As it stands IoCG is only a good choice if you plan on getting beaten in combat, which is unlikely to happen. Even if it does you only have a few models so combat resolution wont hurt you too much.

Finally, it really isnt worth taking all LC champions for your terminators. They are great against infantry, but have a hard time against MCs, cant deal with tanks and will be shot to pieces as soon as they wipre out a squad. It is much better to give them some sort of shooting and a couple of powerfists/chainfist so they are that much more versitile. LC champion terminators is a good gimmick, but there are better ways to run them.

I generally agree with Regwon. I'd say the main strength of Chaos Terminators is their ability to get a mix of different weapons. I usually pack a Reaper, some combi-meltas and a couple of power fists. That way, my shooting is effective against either infantry or vehicles and the same with my assault. Power weapons will go at the same time or before a good portion of enemies, and then power fists will do some damage at the end of the assault.

IoCG is nice with expensive troops because 5 terminators losing 2 men to shooting and fleeing is a major facepalm moment. Same goes for losing assaults.

Khorne is nice for any unit in a LR that's going to hit hard.

Slaanesh is pretty nasty too against orks or MEQs, as it will give you the automatic first strike (not counting cover)

Nurgle is nice because it makes your 2+/5++ troops even more durable. Thing is, it's useless against plasma weapons (or stronger), so the things that really killed your termies, will still really kill them. Against most enemies in assault it's really, really nasty though.

I don't use Tzeentch but it would be nice on a unit that's going to be going after other elite units. Sending tzeentch marked troops up against Howling Banshees is pretty awesome.

I'm just going to copy/paste Regwon's last paragraph here. Solid advice.

"Finally, it really isnt worth taking all LC champions for your terminators. They are great against infantry, but have a hard time against MCs, cant deal with tanks and will be shot to pieces as soon as they wipre out a squad. It is much better to give them some sort of shooting and a couple of powerfists/chainfist so they are that much more versitile. LC champion terminators is a good gimmick, but there are better ways to run them."

See, I disagree.

On loyalist terminators, where you can get some decent guns, giving up all your shooting seems foolish (except now they have 3+ inv. saves).

On the other hand, I find chaos terminator shooting to be so bad as to be not worth having anyway. The only gun that chaos terminators can take that I believe is really worth it is the heavy flamer.

Combi-bolters are just more S4 shots - and you can get them elsewhere in the chaos army.

Combi melta/plasma/flamers are ok, but it means you lose an attack in CC because you don't have lightning claws. I guess deep-striking and taking combi-melta shots is something, but once you've done that, you have a very mediocre unit left.

Lightning claw champions, on the other hand, are a dedicated unit that can trump a great many enemy assault units. Of course, when you do this, you want them in an land raider, but that also helps you ignore the handful of things that you cannot drop.

I like running this sort of setup with MoS because it allows you to reduce the return attacks you'll have to face, and if you make your guys really expensive, keeping them alive becomes important. But I do make sure that one of them is a heavy flamer/chainfist guy, to have backup against the tough stuff.

Short of running into a wall of stuff with a 3+ invul save, these guys make a mess of most enemies. The handful of enemies that strike faster are all unable to hurt the land raider, and are heavy flamer bait.

Now, I haven't really used this unit since the chaos daemon codex came out, and the fact that there are a lot of invul saves in that army, and the new marine termies are running around with stupidly-good shields, they're not quite the trump unit that they had been before, but they're certainly not worth just writing off entirely.

I play CSM and i have liek 20 terminators b/c i love the variety you can use. But i have to say LC champs with MoT put up a hell of a fight against SS/TH salamander termies. I played a game planetstrike test at my FLGS and was surprised at the result. Wounded vulkan and killed all his termies.

I tested the combi melta/plasma but 35 points for DS a combi weapon just sounds stupid tbh. Suicide termies not a fan... i dont like giving my apponents free points.

I run termies 3 ways MoS w/ LC, MoT w/LC or 10 terminators 2 heavy flamers Bring the pain horde armies . Spend champion points depending on the point scale of the game. Oh yah in LR termies with LC.

rlsquared2 wrote:I play CSM and i have liek 20 terminators b/c i love the variety you can use. But i have to say LC champs with MoT put up a hell of a fight against SS/TH salamander termies. I played a game planetstrike test at my FLGS and was surprised at the result. Wounded vulkan and killed all his termies.

I tested the combi melta/plasma but 35 points for DS a combi weapon just sounds stupid tbh. Suicide termies not a fan... i dont like giving my apponents free points.

I run termies 3 ways MoS w/ LC, MoT w/LC or 10 terminators 2 heavy flamers Bring the pain horde armies . Spend champion points depending on the point scale of the game. Oh yah in LR termies with LC.

Sure LC terminator champions (50 points a pop...) with the Icon of Tzeentch (another 40 or 50 points) can do OK against TH/SS terminators... but they cost so much more it's ridiculous, and can lose their 4+ invuln to wound allocation.

I prefer my terminators versatile, cheap, and expendable.

My favorite chaos terminator loadout is 2x combi melta, 1x heavy flamer, deep striking. Comes in at a cool 105 points, and can do well more than that in damage by the time my enemy takes them down.

For any close combat chaos termies, I'd go for Slaanesh - hitting first (against most opponents) with power weapons is never a bad thing. Whether the cost of LCs is worth it is up to you - personally I'd go for a little more diversity, e.g. a couple of combi-meltas as suggested above.

termies are expensive enough as it is. IoCG stops them from turning tail, and is cheap if spread across enough. I havent found the other marks make enough of a difference over the course of a game.

I pretty much use exclusivily MoS and keep the power weapons. Since you are going to have few Termies I rather deny attacks back at me even if I fail on a 1.

As for deepstriking I love using the 3 man combi-melta suicide squad. If your opponent is also foolish and places a tank away from the main force you also can have a good chance of living as you make your way across their flank. Even so look at this way... they will kill the tank and then force your opponent to target them with more then normal fire power or risk an assault down the road.

I have thought about running a LC termy sqd from a raider. The only thing that puts me off is the lack of a sweeping advance, meaning they will get stuck in the open (as has been said) and shot to death.

However, surely it is possible to possition the LR while the CC is taking place to block line of site so the 'big termy killing guns' cant see them, or to block the assault possibilities of big killy things?
would this work?

I vote for Chaos Glory. Using when I take an icon of Tzeentch it doesn't get used much. Most stuff just hits the 2+ armor save. And having a morale re-roll for a small unit is always good.

I really like my termies as a shooty unit. It's all twin-linked if you have combi bolters and 2 reapers, and that hurts a lot (even at Str 4).