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I've got two very quick batreps and my IG ard boyz list will be revealed (my sisters baby shower is that weekend, so it will go unplayed)

Here is my IG list.

CCS 4x melta chimera heavy flamer

PBS (8 psykers) chimera heavy flamer
PBS (8 psykers) chimera heavy flamer

vets 3x melta chimera heavy flamer
vets 3x melta chimera heavy flamer
vets 3x melta chimera heavy flamer
vets 3x melta chimera heavy flamer

2x devildogs heavy flamer
2x devildogs heavy flamer
2x devildogs heavy flamer

2x medusa bastion breacher heavy flamer
2x medusa bastion breacher heavy flamer
manticore heavy flamer



Played against 2 different ork armies. Both had 45 lootas. I got pretty convincing wins in both games, first was KP which was a snap, the objective game got a little tougher with lootas going after my troops early.

First game his list was 45 lootas, 6 deffkoptas, 4 battlewagons, a meganob unit, 3x20 boy units, a kff mek and ghazgul. How it went down was that my heavy support was ample for battlewagon removal. I started turn 1 opening up a wagon, and then on turn 2 I was able to completely seal off the wagons from movement with devildog blocking. On the next turn the medusa cracked another wagon. The manticore would just crush whatever fell out, and with +2 to damage results, for both my medusa and my meltacannon it was often an explosion result. Even with 18 tanks, I could deploy central enough to the table to not let deffkoptas charge from reserve.

Battlewagons that need to get close to win seem to have serious trouble when you can use fast vehicles to wall them up for a turn or two. Orks obviously don't have meltas, so me getting close to their transports wasn't really dangerous. His 45 lootas were overworked trying to answer all my threats quickly, and every time they didn't deliver, it was devastating.


The next game was against 45 lootas a full 11 man nob biker unit, 3x20 boys with rokkits and 3 shooty open topped wagons. This game was a bit harder because it was objectives and he went after my troops. It was dawn of war, but I deployed a chimera and vets on the table so I could spotlight the bikers. I klled 7 bikers and weaken resolved the nobs on bottom of turn 1. He passed his test, but it wasn't really a big deal, they killed a couple of tanks and then I killed 1 more model and weaken resolved them again. The shootier boys were a bit more of a problem, and his lootas were a bit hotter than my previous opponents, but I managed to get rid of all of his troops and all of his wagons as the game came to a close. I was out of ammo on my manticore, and had 2 units of vets left, both of them walking, but I managed to get one on an objective and out of LOS, and then I shook his hand.

Nob bikers driving into a modern IG armies heavy support are hard pressed. Its tough for them at 1750. 2500 just gave me too many points to buy meltacannons, medusas and manticores. For the record I didn't shoot a single meltagun into the nob bikers on turn 1. And the list had 16. So I don't think a list with two nob bikers would be any better against IG.

Ultimately. I don't really think there is an ork army for IG to worry about. If I were going to ard boyz, I'd probably take IG as its my main army.

However, I am petrified of jetlocks. I think some EML wave serpents and a big jetlock unit or two just ruins my particular list. I don't really know for sure. But I have strong suspicions. Also, something built around vulkan could be quite scary as well. I'm thinking lots of terminators, bikes with MM, masses of speeders could all combine to make a mess of my neatly organized formation i think the vulkan lists would be more of a slugout, whereas the eldar match could go downhill fast.

Non-shooty demons just won't be a problem since the PBS are back in my list. Shooty demons should be pretty tough, although I'm not sure how well bolt of tzeentch scales. Might not have enough of them for 18 tanks.

CSM? unless they can take more than 9 oblits, I don't think they can hang. 9 oblits and 3 land raiders probably isn't enough, thanks to all of my heavy armor hate.

Who am I forgetting?

My prediction for ard boys. Eldar, Vulkan or IG. Depending on who gets the lucky matchups.

IG is a more powerful list at 2500 than it is at 1750 IMO. And it should be pretty easy to see why. It could function well with a single force org chart in a 3500 game. Almost everyone else except marines and eldar hit force org caps and then have to buy stuff they don't want. I think this informs the ard boyz metagame pretty well.

Feel free to take my analysis apart if it needs it .

Thanks for reading and sorry the batreps are so short.

I agree with most of what you've said. However, I think Demons should be added to the list of armies that scale well to 2500. The 24 Crushers and 3 DP's alone can be anywhere from 1500 to 1700 points. With 4 heralds and some troops, you could easily go well beyond 2500.

Similar list to what I had planned for my IG at 1750 apart from 2 less medusa, less vets, no PBS etc. Problem is at 1750 -I didnt have enough points to get enough hulls to protect the medusas/manticores. Ah well.

Nice reports anyway, thanks for writing it.

2500 is just a really staggering amount of points (especially for UK tourny players) and the meta really changes at that level imo. I agree mostly with your analysis..mech eldar (especially with 2 bikecouncils..but I don't think you will see that-too many points and a bitch to convert all those locks on bikes =P. Plus Eldrad is a beast.) well played is a real bitch to play against..do you shoot the 36 inch moving tanks or the seer council thats being rammed down your throat? What about the jetbikes which all have fortuned cover saves who are going to contest/score.

Vulkan marines is also very difficult to play against..the normal mech vulkan I think is beatable since it ends up a war of attrition in the middle with a no-go melta zone of death...IG have better long range firepower IMO.

However this bike/speeder vulkan list that is being talked about is very very nasty, over 4-5 land speeders and 4-5 attack bikers with multimeltas + machine spirited land raiders, all twin linked and moving 12 inches a turn can cause a lot of damage. Good thing is your PBS's are excellent vs that list =P, and especially since they won't be able to run a libby with vulkan. Getting rid of the land raider so you can weaken resolve the bikers off the table will be priority number uno.

I also think a well made + played Tau list could give any of these 3 a run for their money but its very easy to make a mistake with them and lose the game-I think that will put them out of the running 9 times out of 10.

Interesting list. I see you've totally dumped valkryies/vendettas and moved to the devildog camp .

Shooty daemons just don't scale well. You get everything you need at 1750 after that you just end up with screamers or more horrors, or bigger units of flamers.

What were you using to get rid of the loota's?

I've noticed that your army is ineffective outside of 36", you don't think that will be a crutch in spearhead missions? Or are you counting on just running flatout with all of the devildogs the first turn?

I think the medusa is amazing for it's points. The problem is that I'm not buying all the forge world ones, ahh well, we need to find someone to come up with an easy conversion guide.

Webway portal wych cult could give you an issue, them dropping portals means they are going to be in your lines on turn 2 with haywire all over the place, as well as 2 blasters a squad.

I agree with you on a Vulkan list being very tough in this environment. Eldar would have to run seer council heavy. 1 on jetbikes and eldrad with another squad in a serpent I think would be best.

Warmaster wrote:Interesting list. I see you've totally dumped valkryies/vendettas and moved to the devildog camp .

Shooty daemons just don't scale well. You get everything you need at 1750 after that you just end up with screamers or more horrors, or bigger units of flamers.

What were you using to get rid of the loota's?

I've noticed that your army is ineffective outside of 36", you don't think that will be a crutch in spearhead missions? Or are you counting on just running flatout with all of the devildogs the first turn?

I think the medusa is amazing for it's points. The problem is that I'm not buying all the forge world ones, ahh well, we need to find someone to come up with an easy conversion guide.

Webway portal wych cult could give you an issue, them dropping portals means they are going to be in your lines on turn 2 with haywire all over the place, as well as 2 blasters a squad.

I agree with you on a Vulkan list being very tough in this environment. Eldar would have to run seer council heavy. 1 on jetbikes and eldrad with another squad in a serpent I think would be best.

Remember that he is using the special shells for the medusa, so they has a range of 48" plus he has the manticore.

What about Mech Eldar? It looks like Mass Wave serpents could be a shooty problem with their Wave fields...

I'm predicting a win for the Double Council Mechdar. With most list being mechanized, DCMD can take TLBL Serpents with Dragons, seer councils chew through anything, then have TLBL WS on DA, 2x 3 Jetbikes for fast objective grab and maybe a fireprism or two.... Their firepower is insain and their speed is even better.

AdeptSister wrote:Remember that he is using the special shells for the medusa, so they has a range of 48" plus he has the manticore.

What about Mech Eldar? It looks like Mass Wave serpents could be a shooty problem with their Wave fields...

Dammit, I don't know why I keep getting the two ranges mixed up. I like the medusa but I know I won't be playing with any until they come out with the kit, unless someone posts a really cool article on how to convert one from a basilisk.

I think you need to add Necrons to the list of things that scale awesomely.

It seems that everyone overlooks the humble Hydra to counter Mech Eldar. Stripping their cover save and firing at least 4 TL Autocannon shots (if you only took 1). Having a squad of 3 in heavy support just spells all sorts of death for skimmers/jetbikes/bikers/light transports.

That and they shred infantry just as well, needing only 2+ to wound on most targets.

Jetbikes/jetcouncils have normal 3+ saves so they don't care much about the Hydras firing at them (fortuned council re-rolling 3+ saves... forget it).

A unit of 3 Hydras is solid for taking the skimmers out of the ari though. At 225pts for 3, it is a good buy as well.

Pretty spot on discussion guys.

Ard Boyz is definitely not 1750 40k with more points. It creates entirely new lists, like bike vulkan, seer council WITH wave serpent eldar, and other things that its too early to think of.

I did ditch vendettas, I don't run them in my 1750 either. Movement blocking is too important to long range IG, and with 4 medusas with BB and a manticore, I'm not having a problem with vehicles. Mass light vehicles that can outshoot me will beat me, but what we are talking about is a guy who brings my same list with vendies instead of DD, since my devildogs can't block him. If he takes demolishers I have the advantage, I can pop them before they get to fire.

The only reason I think my list has a game against bike vulkan is because I have 2 PBS. Now I'm hearing that people are going to screen bikes with land raiders, which actually I dont even need to adjust for since I pack so much LR hate. I can pop LR or cause a casualty to a bike with a shrewd blast placement, or if need be, go over the top of the screen and hope for some "hits" with indirect. If I can get just a tiny bit of LOS, those bikes are history. It doesn't solve my terminator problem and the mass TL MM problem, but at least the tools to win are included in my list. I think I could make those games real tight and fun to watch.

I respectfully have to dismiss demons as a threat after warmaster infomred me about the bolt of tzeentch scaling. Don't get me wrong I love demons, and have much respect for a 1750 shooty demon list. But if you are going to use bloodcrushers and fateweaver as your win condition, then fateweaver is faced off against 7 multi-lasers and 2 PBS, without shooting any support or attack at him. And then crushers are getting walled off by devildogs. Fiends get more respect, but are also easier for me to handle. Not saying i won't lose models, but I don't think choppy demons can keep up.

Forgot tau and forgot dark eldar. Tau, well... thats probably pretty bad news. If I lined up against piranhas, pathfinders, broadisides and deathrains, and didn't get to go first. I don't think I'll have medusas and manticores. If they are taken out, then its peace out. If I go first and my support is accurate, and his cover saves aren't amazing, then i could subtract some broadsides beforre he can shoot them. I'd prefer not to face them down.

Didn't mention dark eldar. In all my years playing 40k and with a regular opponent that owns them, I still don't understand them. I know they can pack a sick amount of dark lances, but I also know that they have only 3-5 playable units in their dex, and those units are inexpensive generally, so i can't imagine 2500 points is helpful to them.

How does eldar matchup with vulkan? I suppose they wash against thammers, but they can't really kill bikes, unless they whip out their fire dragons... which they need to pop the LRs. I think I'd just love to read a batrep about them.

Anyone planning to get some games in?

edit: forgot to address two things. The hydra mention is actually pretty clever. If I felt like I was going to see quite a bit of eldar, then it would be an excellent substitution for the manticore slot. I think more people own space marines and I think vulkan has a better shot at winning, so I'm not doing that theoretically. But since, I won't be attending the first round its all acedemic.

Also, for the tau matchup, finding 30 points for an astropath is possibly a worthwhile investment. I have enough tau models to try it out, but if not going first against tau = auto-loss, then squeezing an astropath in the list could make some sense.

I just got the bikes i needed to start testing last night so I'll be testing the bike vulkan list as much as I can before the first round. I have a game lined up against a double lash list next monday and possibly another marine army on sunday. We have a guy who plays eldar who I'm going to see if I can get a game in against.

Lots more poeple do have Marines I think you're right. the Hydras won't be of much use against biker Vulkan either for the most part. In an Eldar heavy environment they would be supreme though.

Fatecrusher will be strange when it is scaled up to 2500pts. I'd expect it to be packing 3 Grinders w/Tongue, a Bloodthirster and a pile of Horros with Bolt to help deal with mechanized stuff. I suspect you can deal with the army decently enough, but move blocking with the Devildogs won't last long against a billion str5 attacks onto their rear armor if they survive all the Bolts and Tongues.

As for a list like yours with Vendettas instead of the DDs... I would expect it. I'm seeing Vendettas EVERYWHERE in new IG lists, so I would probably expect to see them in a whole lot of IG armies you might see at 'Ard Boyz. You probably won't see the aircav/alphastrike type lists running around since they don't really hit hard enough at 2500pts, but you should expect to see lists with 3-5 Valk/Dettas in them to support their mechanized core. I know if I was playing in 'Ard Boyz this year I'd be packing 3 Vendettas for sure.

Khornatedemon wrote:I just got the bikes i needed to start testing last night so I'll be testing the bike vulkan list as much as I can before the first round. I have a game lined up against a double lash list next monday and possibly another marine army on sunday. We have a guy who plays eldar who I'm going to see if I can get a game in against.

Sweet! Please post batreps!

Caffran9 wrote:I suspect you can deal with the army decently enough, but move blocking with the Devildogs won't last long against a billion str5 attacks onto their rear armor if they survive all the Bolts and Tongues.

They'll need at least a billion strength 5 attacks to get through a devildog wall. 6s to hit, 6s to pen, 4s to kill. About a 1% chance to kill me per swing. Bolts and tongues however, can open up that lane. Demon players will have to be smart enough to shoot my fast attack first, and lucky enough to get their shooty wave.

Caffran9 wrote:As for a list like yours with Vendettas instead of the DDs... I would expect it. I'm seeing Vendettas EVERYWHERE in new IG lists, so I would probably expect to see them in a whole lot of IG armies you might see at 'Ard Boyz. You probably won't see the aircav/alphastrike type lists running around since they don't really hit hard enough at 2500pts, but you should expect to see lists with 3-5 Valk/Dettas in them to support their mechanized core. I know if I was playing in 'Ard Boyz this year I'd be packing 3 Vendettas for sure.

They are quite popular. Yet another reason for me to consider -1 manticore, +2 hydra.

I was thinking about taking a vulkin spam list to ard boys and taking an inq lord with a hood so I dont have to worry about pbs, lash, or eldar. 70ish points for a inq lord with a hood+ 2 mystics is not too bad. Would really help me counter alist like this. But I must say its one of the best guard lists I have ever seen

3 Monoliths would ruin your day. The crons can hang back in reserve/at range, and they are great at shooting vehicles to prevent return fire.

40kenthusiast wrote:3 Monoliths would ruin your day. The crons can hang back in reserve/at range, and they are great at shooting vehicles to prevent return fire.

the manticore can hurt liths'. May not get extra dice but its still str10. Also once the crons start showing their face they are gonna drop to medusa's, PBS, and melta cannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Krootman wrote:I was thinking about taking a vulkin spam list to ard boys and taking an inq lord with a hood so I dont have to worry about pbs, lash, or eldar. 70ish points for a inq lord with a hood+ 2 mystics is not too bad. Would really help me counter alist like this. But I must say its one of the best guard lists I have ever seen

i really want a hood in my biker vulkan list but i dont know how to get it as i need both vulkan and the bike capt. The elite inquisitor only has LD8 which sucks.

Krootman wrote:I was thinking about taking a vulkin spam list to ard boys and taking an inq lord with a hood so I dont have to worry about pbs, lash, or eldar. 70ish points for a inq lord with a hood+ 2 mystics is not too bad. Would really help me counter alist like this.

marines at ard boys are in a pinch for HQ. They need a bike captain and Vulkan, or they'll lose troop mobile multi-meltas. You could take an elite choice inq and bump up his leadership with hierophants, but thats 10 less terminators.

I think if you asked me what was a more important HQ for ard boys space marines I would say the bike captain. I bet I'll get disagreed with a lot, but vulkan is one of those guys that everyone has a hard time finding a unit to join with, and no one wants to get him into combat. So really you are paying his points for the thunderhammer master-crafting and the MM twin-linking. Sm MM only miss 33% of the time. So you need 3 shots mathematically speaking to trigger the TL. 3 shots basically equals 4 shots with him. If 65 points = a MM speeder, and he costs 200ish (I can't believe I can't remember what he costs) then you'll need at least 9 MM (or close range meltas if you get that close) to buy him back. Since having more units has better survivability and better damage potential on above average rolls, you can make a case for him to be not included. Not saying he is somehow not awesome. Just saying that I think the bike captain is the first purchase, then vulkan gets purchased when all of your quality MM slots are filled.

Krootman wrote:But I must say its one of the best guard lists I have ever seen

Flattery will get you everywhere! haha. the list just evolved from people ignoring my executioners and demolishes. So i tried swapping them out for something with more oomph... turns out they still ignore the medusas. Primarily because they have devildogs in their face.

Khornatedemon wrote:
i really want a hood in my biker vulkan list but i dont know how to get it as i need both vulkan and the bike capt. The elite inquisitor only has LD8 which sucks.

Which is why the 72pt DaemonHunter Inquisitor was born. You buy the normal DH Inquisitor +2 mystics a psychic hood and 2 hierophants. Hierophants give +1 to your leadership value.

Your list actually inspired me to come up with a vulkin version. Lacks long range at but makes up for it because every gun is tl


HQ
Vulkin 190

Inq lord 168
-tarrot
-hood
-2 warriors
--2 flamers
rhino 58
--ea, smokes

Elite
Dred 150
-mm,heavy flamer
-pod

10 sternguard 335
-6 combis (2 flamers, 4 meltas)
-2 heavy flamers

10 sternguard 335
-6 combis (2 flamers, 4 meltas)
-2 heavy flamers

Troops (marines can take both witchhunters and daemon hunters allies)

5 inq storm troopers 123
-2 meltas
Rhino
-smoke

5 inq storm troopers 123
-2 meltas
Rhino
-smoke

5 inq storm troopers 123
-2 meltas
Rhino
-smoke

5 inq storm troopers 113
-2 flamers
Rhino
-smoke

10 tac marines 230
-flamer
-mm
-sgt with combi flamer, p weapon
Rhino

10 tac marines 230
-flamer
-mm
-sgt with combi flamer, p weapon
rhino

Fast attack
3 speeders 180
-heavy flamer/heavy flamer

2 atk bikes 100
-mm

2 atk bikes 100
-mm


7 mms
9 heavy flamers
12 flamers
14 meltas
7 rhinos
3 drop pods

Khornatedemon wrote:

40kenthusiast wrote:3 Monoliths would ruin your day. The crons can hang back in reserve/at range, and they are great at shooting vehicles to prevent return fire.

the manticore can hurt liths'. May not get extra dice but its still str10. Also once the crons start showing their face they are gonna drop to medusa's, PBS, and melta cannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Krootman wrote:I was thinking about taking a vulkin spam list to ard boys and taking an inq lord with a hood so I dont have to worry about pbs, lash, or eldar. 70ish points for a inq lord with a hood+ 2 mystics is not too bad. Would really help me counter alist like this. But I must say its one of the best guard lists I have ever seen

i really want a hood in my biker vulkan list but i dont know how to get it as i need both vulkan and the bike capt. The elite inquisitor only has LD8 which sucks.

You can allways give them the + leadership retinue in addition to some mystics, throw them in a Rhino so they can advance with the Raiders and you have a nice little DS/Psycic protection unit. Still not as good as a lord though. Honestly I would not worry so much about PBS and Lash. If you go second you can take advantage of your mobility to steer clear of them on turn 1, and after than its not really relevant. So they weaken resolve you and you fall back, So What. You just ATSKNNF at the begining of your next turn and hit em again.

As for Lash, well if he lashes a bike squad into assault range on his turn 1 so what, you have plenty and your alpha strike on Turn 2 will hit hard enough that One less Bike unit won't really matter.

I guess well see once some real testing with the army is done, but I dont see PBS as a problem at all. Thats the advantage of going MSU bikers as opposed to Death Star Bikers.

Shep wrote:

Krootman wrote:I was thinking about taking a vulkin spam list to ard boys and taking an inq lord with a hood so I dont have to worry about pbs, lash, or eldar. 70ish points for a inq lord with a hood+ 2 mystics is not too bad. Would really help me counter alist like this.

marines at ard boys are in a pinch for HQ. They need a bike captain and Vulkan, or they'll lose troop mobile multi-meltas. You could take an elite choice inq and bump up his leadership with hierophants, but thats 10 less terminators.

I think if you asked me what was a more important HQ for ard boys space marines I would say the bike captain. I bet I'll get disagreed with a lot, but vulkan is one of those guys that everyone has a hard time finding a unit to join with, and no one wants to get him into combat. So really you are paying his points for the thunderhammer master-crafting and the MM twin-linking. Sm MM only miss 33% of the time. So you need 3 shots mathematically speaking to trigger the TL. 3 shots basically equals 4 shots with him. If 65 points = a MM speeder, and he costs 200ish (I can't believe I can't remember what he costs) then you'll need at least 9 MM (or close range meltas if you get that close) to buy him back. Since having more units has better survivability and better damage potential on above average rolls, you can make a case for him to be not included. Not saying he is somehow not awesome. Just saying that I think the bike captain is the first purchase, then vulkan gets purchased when all of your quality MM slots are filled.

Krootman wrote:But I must say its one of the best guard lists I have ever seen

Flattery will get you everywhere! haha. the list just evolved from people ignoring my executioners and demolishes. So i tried swapping them out for something with more oomph... turns out they still ignore the medusas. Primarily because they have devildogs in their face.

i agree. i think the bike squads are going to be clutch. Now I just hope to get enough practice so i use them right. With me vulkan comes down to the fact my dice fail me on a regualar basis. Even twin linked I miss a slowed amount of melta shots. I generally stick him with a terminator squad and only even get him out of the LR if its favorable for him or I want the flamer shot. He's good at taking out small squads. With his heavy flamer and cc prowess he will destroy non power armor squads by himself and can take out combat squads pretty easily on his own.

If i find I just have enough meltas to not worry about it vulkan will be dropped for a libby.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Warmaster wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:
i really want a hood in my biker vulkan list but i dont know how to get it as i need both vulkan and the bike capt. The elite inquisitor only has LD8 which sucks.

Which is why the 72pt DaemonHunter Inquisitor was born. You buy the normal DH Inquisitor +2 mystics a psychic hood and 2 hierophants. Hierophants give +1 to your leadership value.

hmm i guess i could do 60 points for inq with hood and 2 heirophants. i totally forgot about them. I dont see the mystics being usefull for me as I really have nothing to shoot at them with thats worthwhile. I guess if a drop pod lands close to my redeemers i can try a flamestorm shot but otherwise its only going to be bolters or a single assault cannon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bigtmac68 wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:

40kenthusiast wrote:3 Monoliths would ruin your day. The crons can hang back in reserve/at range, and they are great at shooting vehicles to prevent return fire.

the manticore can hurt liths'. May not get extra dice but its still str10. Also once the crons start showing their face they are gonna drop to medusa's, PBS, and melta cannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Krootman wrote:I was thinking about taking a vulkin spam list to ard boys and taking an inq lord with a hood so I dont have to worry about pbs, lash, or eldar. 70ish points for a inq lord with a hood+ 2 mystics is not too bad. Would really help me counter alist like this. But I must say its one of the best guard lists I have ever seen

i really want a hood in my biker vulkan list but i dont know how to get it as i need both vulkan and the bike capt. The elite inquisitor only has LD8 which sucks.

You can allways give them the + leadership retinue in addition to some mystics, throw them in a Rhino so they can advance with the Raiders and you have a nice little DS/Psycic protection unit. Still not as good as a lord though. Honestly I would not worry so much about PBS and Lash. If you go second you can take advantage of your mobility to steer clear of them on turn 1, and after than its not really relevant. So they weaken resolve you and you fall back, So What. You just ATSKNNF at the begining of your next turn and hit em again.

As for Lash, well if he lashes a bike squad into assault range on his turn 1 so what, you have plenty and your alpha strike on Turn 2 will hit hard enough that One less Bike unit won't really matter.

I guess well see once some real testing with the army is done, but I dont see PBS as a problem at all. Thats the advantage of going MSU bikers as opposed to Death Star Bikers.

well my first test game is against lash, so we will see.

Warmaster wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:
i really want a hood in my biker vulkan list but i dont know how to get it as i need both vulkan and the bike capt. The elite inquisitor only has LD8 which sucks.

Which is why the 72pt DaemonHunter Inquisitor was born. You buy the normal DH Inquisitor +2 mystics a psychic hood and 2 hierophants. Hierophants give +1 to your leadership value.

hmm i guess i could do 60 points for inq with hood and 2 heirophants. i totally forgot about them. I dont see the mystics being usefull for me as I really have nothing to shoot at them with thats worthwhile. I guess if a drop pod lands close to my redeemers i can try a flamestorm shot but otherwise its only going to be bolters or a single assault cannon.

Shep wrote:

Krootman wrote:I was thinking about taking a vulkin spam list to ard boys and taking an inq lord with a hood so I dont have to worry about pbs, lash, or eldar. 70ish points for a inq lord with a hood+ 2 mystics is not too bad. Would really help me counter alist like this.

marines at ard boys are in a pinch for HQ. They need a bike captain and Vulkan, or they'll lose troop mobile multi-meltas. You could take an elite choice inq and bump up his leadership with hierophants, but thats 10 less terminators.

I think if you asked me what was a more important HQ for ard boys space marines I would say the bike captain. I bet I'll get disagreed with a lot, but vulkan is one of those guys that everyone has a hard time finding a unit to join with, and no one wants to get him into combat. So really you are paying his points for the thunderhammer master-crafting and the MM twin-linking. Sm MM only miss 33% of the time. So you need 3 shots mathematically speaking to trigger the TL. 3 shots basically equals 4 shots with him. If 65 points = a MM speeder, and he costs 200ish (I can't believe I can't remember what he costs) then you'll need at least 9 MM (or close range meltas if you get that close) to buy him back. Since having more units has better survivability and better damage potential on above average rolls, you can make a case for him to be not included. Not saying he is somehow not awesome. Just saying that I think the bike captain is the first purchase, then vulkan gets purchased when all of your quality MM slots are filled.

Krootman wrote:But I must say its one of the best guard lists I have ever seen

Flattery will get you everywhere! haha. the list just evolved from people ignoring my executioners and demolishes. So i tried swapping them out for something with more oomph... turns out they still ignore the medusas. Primarily because they have devildogs in their face.

I agree with the sm captian, but im going a different direction with my sm list I think. Something else to consider with your guard list would be to replace 3 devil dogs with 3 vendettas, can rush them foward if you need to do some blocking same as the devil dogs but they can also provide you with some extra long range tank support. I know lascannons are not the best at poping tanks but they are better then nothing. Another problem with your list is it costs around 800 bucks :( tear

This may be a local metagame but a the current tau list in vogue is the 15 piranha swarm. With the massive points limit for ard boyz a normal tau army can be fielded after you spend the 1200 or so points for the piranhas. With only one opening on the chimeras a piranha can drop both gun drones and make itself wide enough to prevent escape and then pop the chimera with the melta and theres 15 of them. granted the vechical squadron rules hurt them, but they are usually dead once they are hit anyway. I've seen this list combined with a ninja tau other half wipe the table of mech sm by turn three. 15 piranhas could reasonably pop 3-4 chirmeras a turn and any railguns in the other half would decimate other tank units. Not to insult your list. A good result with the meltas and vendettas could leave a lot of dead piranhas. I would be a fun attrition based battle.

razorlead wrote:This may be a local metagame but a the current tau list in vogue is the 15 piranha swarm. With the massive points limit for ard boyz a normal tau army can be fielded after you spend the 1200 or so points for the piranhas. With only one opening on the chimeras a piranha can drop both gun drones and make itself wide enough to prevent escape and then pop the chimera with the melta and theres 15 of them. granted the vechical squadron rules hurt them, but they are usually dead once they are hit anyway. I've seen this list combined with a ninja tau other half wipe the table of mech sm by turn three. 15 piranhas could reasonably pop 3-4 chirmeras a turn and any railguns in the other half would decimate other tank units. Not to insult your list. A good result with the meltas and vendettas could leave a lot of dead piranhas. I would be a fun attrition based battle.

Ive played vs 10 piranhas but not 15. The piranhas combined for one chimera and one guard squad total, and all died in two turns. It was kind of a slaughter. Im much more concerned with broadsides and death rain suits than piranhas, the multi lasers alone blasted 7 of them in one turn.

Warmaster wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:
i really want a hood in my biker vulkan list but i dont know how to get it as i need both vulkan and the bike capt. The elite inquisitor only has LD8 which sucks.

Which is why the 72pt DaemonHunter Inquisitor was born. You buy the normal DH Inquisitor +2 mystics a psychic hood and 2 hierophants. Hierophants give +1 to your leadership value.

False, multiple Heirophants won't increase LD by more than 1 point total. Max LD from the Elites IQ is 9.

having a LD 9 inqis reduces your chance to beat almost all psychic powers from a flat 50% to a 33% chance. Not worth it. Take the HQ.

razorlead wrote:This may be a local metagame but a the current tau list in vogue is the 15 piranha swarm. With the massive points limit for ard boyz a normal tau army can be fielded after you spend the 1200 or so points for the piranhas. With only one opening on the chimeras a piranha can drop both gun drones and make itself wide enough to prevent escape and then pop the chimera with the melta and theres 15 of them. granted the vechical squadron rules hurt them, but they are usually dead once they are hit anyway. I've seen this list combined with a ninja tau other half wipe the table of mech sm by turn three. 15 piranhas could reasonably pop 3-4 chirmeras a turn and any railguns in the other half would decimate other tank units. Not to insult your list. A good result with the meltas and vendettas could leave a lot of dead piranhas. I would be a fun attrition based battle.

Piranhas are excellent. They'd do a great job blocking off melta based weaponry from getting to other targets. But they excel when faced up against armies with mostly short range weaponry. I fell in love with devil dogs because of my usage of piranhas to wall off stuff when playing with my tau army. The IG armies that are taking the 48" range heavy support can still reach the stuff that you are screening with piranhas.

Blocking exits only works 33% of the time when using ap1 weaponry. You'll 'trap' units when you get wrecked results. But thanks to your +1 to damage rolls, you are twice as likely to get an 'explodes' result, which allows the owner of the vehicle to place the transported unit in the former footprint of the vehicle.

And, unfortunately, 15 piranhas can only kill a maximum of 3 chimeras a turn. Vehicle based target locks do not work like infantry based target locks. The squadron can't split fire :(

You don't need 15 piranhas, especially because you'll really want markerlights to strip cover saves from all of the checkerboarded vehicle squadrons. Tau have serious high yield answers to vehicles, and my list is all vehicle Broadsides, deathrains, and piranha mounted fusion blasters just love to see a bunch of vehicles. Snot green bikes and snot green assault terminators? Not so much

So shep, you think that mech vets have nothing to worry about from any ork list? Or is this just at the 2500 point level?

With the lack of ork melta and the prevalence of mech, I'm starting to feel a little hopeless about greenskins