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Jubal The Great Khan, Chapter Master of the White Scars.

WS7 BS5 S4 T4(5) W3 I5 A3(5) Ld10 Sv2+

Wargear:
Artificer Armor
The White Scar
Bolt Pistol (bonus for two CCWs already included in profile)
Jaghatai's Fang
Frag and Krak Grenades
Iron Halo
The Khan's Chariot

Special Rules:
ATSKNF
Eternal Warrior
Chapter Tactics
Independent Character

Jaghatai's Fang:
Jaghatai's Fang is a master crafted power weapon that adds 1 to Jubal's attacks. (bonus already included in profile)

The White Scar:
The White Scar is a Combat Shield that with a personal void shield that allows the wielder to reroll all failed armor saves

The Khan's Chariot:
The Khan's Chariot is a Space Marine Bike that may incorporate a different weapon in place of it's Twin-Linked Bolter
- Twin-Linked Storm Bolter - 5 points
- Twin-Linked Plasma Gun - 10 points
- Twin-Linked Flamer - 10 points

Chapter Tactics:
All units give up the Combat Tactics special rule for the Furious Charge USR.


I need a Price on this guy. C&C welcome. I didn't give him orbital bombardment because I didn't feel he would ever use it.

I'm going to tentatively say around 175. I'm trying to remember the base costs of all the wargear he has, but I haven't looked at my marine codex is a long time. He seems reasonably balanced, either way.

EDIT:
I JUST noticed that he rerolls armor saves. Which is is really too damned good. doh. Yeah, tone that down.

Really? Good, i was afraid his storm shield would be a little overpowered.

hmm I don't know he has a 2+, then a 3++, then FNP and Enternal Warrior, either ditch Enternal Warrior or FNP and them I think he would be quite balanced.

You may as well remove his weapon's bonus attack, and just give him a bolt pistol. Same effect, less rules to learn.

Also, with the ability to re-roll failed armour and invulernable saves, he better cost a heck of a lot more than 175 points!

I would price this guy at more like 300 points. He's incredibly powerful, with every kind of save available at his fingertips, as well as the ability to re-roll his 2+ armour and 3+ invulernable.

MinMax wrote:You may as well remove his weapon's bonus attack, and just give him a bolt pistol. Same effect, less rules to learn.

Also, with the ability to re-roll failed armour and invulernable saves, he better cost a heck of a lot more than 175 points!

I would price this guy at more like 300 points. He's incredibly powerful, with every kind of save available at his fingertips, as well as the ability to re-roll his 2+ armour and 3+ invulernable.

1.) he has a storm shield, so the bolt pistol wouldn't help.
2.) I figured as much. I was thinking around 225.
3.) 300+ points? He is far less powerful than other units at that price (c'tan come to mind)

ANALYSIS:
Chapter Master 125 points
-Orbital Bombardment 15-20 points

So let's say 110.
+Space Marine Bike 35
+Storm Shield 15
+Artificer Armor 15
+Jagahati's Fang...hmm. Master-crafted and +1 attack, along with if he does wound, he inflicts 2. I'll price that at 40ish? A relic blade, which gives +2 Str is 30.

That makes him 215.
And he still needs points for FnP and Furious Charge and Re-Roll.

Personally, I'd take off the re-roll. Sicarius has artificer armor that lets him have FnP, so there's precedent for that ability.

Without re-roll, I'd price him somewhere around 225-235. Feel No Pain is of little benefit given his 2+ armor, as any weapon that penetrates the armor, eliminates Feel No Pain.

The Revelator wrote:

MinMax wrote:You may as well remove his weapon's bonus attack, and just give him a bolt pistol. Same effect, less rules to learn.

Also, with the ability to re-roll failed armour and invulernable saves, he better cost a heck of a lot more than 175 points!

I would price this guy at more like 300 points. He's incredibly powerful, with every kind of save available at his fingertips, as well as the ability to re-roll his 2+ armour and 3+ invulernable.

1.) he has a storm shield, so the bolt pistol wouldn't help.
2.) I figured as much. I was thinking around 225.
3.) 300+ points? He is far less powerful than other units at that price (c'tan come to mind)

1) That's true, actually. Good point.
2) With Toughness 5, a 2 re-rollable 2+ armour save, a 3+ re-rollable Invulnerable save, feel no pain, and immunity to Instant Death?

It takes approximately 864 BS 3 lasgun shots to wound this guy, or about 16 BS 4 plasmagun shots.

3) I'm not even sure if that's enough. This guy is practically indestructible, and he does a pretty good job of fighting other units, especially those with Eternal Warrior.

MinMax wrote:

The Revelator wrote:

MinMax wrote:You may as well remove his weapon's bonus attack, and just give him a bolt pistol. Same effect, less rules to learn.

Also, with the ability to re-roll failed armour and invulernable saves, he better cost a heck of a lot more than 175 points!

I would price this guy at more like 300 points. He's incredibly powerful, with every kind of save available at his fingertips, as well as the ability to re-roll his 2+ armour and 3+ invulernable.

1.) he has a storm shield, so the bolt pistol wouldn't help.
2.) I figured as much. I was thinking around 225.
3.) 300+ points? He is far less powerful than other units at that price (c'tan come to mind)

1) That's true, actually. Good point.
2) With Toughness 5, a 2 re-rollable 2+ armour save, a 3+ re-rollable Invulnerable save, feel no pain, and immunity to Instant Death?

It takes approximately 864 BS 3 lasgun shots to wound this guy, or about 16 BS 4 plasmagun shots.

3) I'm not even sure if that's enough. This guy is practically indestructible, and he does a pretty good job of fighting other units, especially those with Eternal Warrior.

2.) the 3+ save is only in combat against enemies that deny both his armor save and FNP, only slightly more powerful than Ghazgull's 2+ invuln save.
3.) He is hardly practically indestructable, and again, he is far less powerful than other units at that price range (calgar beats his socks off as far as damage output goes)

I nerfed the invuln save a reroll a bit though, as allwillfall pointed out, there's not really a whole lot of precedent.

if hes a White Scar Chapter Master..maybe you should give his bike special rules like fleet or a special weapon

Master Llyons wrote:if hes a White Scar Chapter Master..maybe you should give his bike special rules like fleet or a special weapon

Good point, added.

Two points:
I noticed the new version has a Combat shield instead of a Storm shield. Is this accurate? (If so, you can probably take the +1 attack off and give him a bolt pistol, since combat shields don't prevent two ccws like storm shields do.)

Secondly, I don't like his stats. I was looking over them again, and I dislike how this guy, for little reason, has as many wounds as the two SM heroes RENOWNED for endurance (Calgar and Lysander), Eternal Warrior (guess who the only two with that are!) AND higher Weapon Skill, while having a higher effective...wait, having a HIGHER toughness. (Only time you don't count higher T is for Instant Death. Eternal Warrior means...)

My apologies if this comes off as brusque. It's late where I am, so I'm tired, but I felt the point had to be made.

My recommendation: This guy is the White Scars Chapter Master. I expect him to be Hell on his bike. I'd say drop the wound, and maybe give him +1 Initiative. (So he's a fast character, not a tough character.) Or, drop the wound, but keep the +1 attack, in addition to wielding 2 ccws. Then he hits his enemies like a brick. I'm fine with his weapon skill being higher than normal, as long as he isn't also one of the toughest characters out there.

The Revelator wrote:

MinMax wrote:

The Revelator wrote:

MinMax wrote:You may as well remove his weapon's bonus attack, and just give him a bolt pistol. Same effect, less rules to learn.

Also, with the ability to re-roll failed armour and invulernable saves, he better cost a heck of a lot more than 175 points!

I would price this guy at more like 300 points. He's incredibly powerful, with every kind of save available at his fingertips, as well as the ability to re-roll his 2+ armour and 3+ invulernable.

1.) he has a storm shield, so the bolt pistol wouldn't help.
2.) I figured as much. I was thinking around 225.
3.) 300+ points? He is far less powerful than other units at that price (c'tan come to mind)

1) That's true, actually. Good point.
2) With Toughness 5, a 2 re-rollable 2+ armour save, a 3+ re-rollable Invulnerable save, feel no pain, and immunity to Instant Death?

It takes approximately 864 BS 3 lasgun shots to wound this guy, or about 16 BS 4 plasmagun shots.

3) I'm not even sure if that's enough. This guy is practically indestructible, and he does a pretty good job of fighting other units, especially those with Eternal Warrior.

2.) the 3+ save is only in combat against enemies that deny both his armor save and FNP, only slightly more powerful than Ghazgull's 2+ invuln save.
3.) He is hardly practically indestructable, and again, he is far less powerful than other units at that price range (calgar beats his socks off as far as damage output goes)

I nerfed the invuln save a reroll a bit though, as allwillfall pointed out, there's not really a whole lot of precedent.

2) A 3+ re-rollable is better than a straight 2+, especially if the 2+ only lasts for one game turn. I'm glad you stopped him from having a 3+ re-rollable save. Is his shield supposed to be a combat shield, though? With the Iron Halo it doesn't actually do anything, except the special ability.

3) Oh, really?

Marneus Calgar charges a group of Chaos Marines. 5 attacks, and gets 3.33 hits, and about that many wounds. So, Marneus kills 3 Marines on the charge, at Initiative 1. Meaning, he might suffer some damage before he gets to attack.

Jubal charges a group of Chaos Marines. 5 attacks, and gets 3.33 hits. He then scores 2.22 wounds. Meaning, with his special blade, he kills 4 Marines on the charge, at Initiative 6. Meaning, he gets to stop 8 extra attacks that Marneus would have to weather.

Not only that, but Jubal possesses a weapon designed to put down Eternal Warriors, like Abbaddon and Marneus, which Marneus can't do as well, because he can only score 1 wound with each attack.

for a points value i would say at least 500pts, test his rules against armies and see how many time he dies

MinMax wrote:

The Revelator wrote:

MinMax wrote:

The Revelator wrote:

MinMax wrote:You may as well remove his weapon's bonus attack, and just give him a bolt pistol. Same effect, less rules to learn.

Also, with the ability to re-roll failed armour and invulernable saves, he better cost a heck of a lot more than 175 points!

I would price this guy at more like 300 points. He's incredibly powerful, with every kind of save available at his fingertips, as well as the ability to re-roll his 2+ armour and 3+ invulernable.

1.) he has a storm shield, so the bolt pistol wouldn't help.
2.) I figured as much. I was thinking around 225.
3.) 300+ points? He is far less powerful than other units at that price (c'tan come to mind)

1) That's true, actually. Good point.
2) With Toughness 5, a 2 re-rollable 2+ armour save, a 3+ re-rollable Invulnerable save, feel no pain, and immunity to Instant Death?

It takes approximately 864 BS 3 lasgun shots to wound this guy, or about 16 BS 4 plasmagun shots.

3) I'm not even sure if that's enough. This guy is practically indestructible, and he does a pretty good job of fighting other units, especially those with Eternal Warrior.

2.) the 3+ save is only in combat against enemies that deny both his armor save and FNP, only slightly more powerful than Ghazgull's 2+ invuln save.
3.) He is hardly practically indestructable, and again, he is far less powerful than other units at that price range (calgar beats his socks off as far as damage output goes)

I nerfed the invuln save a reroll a bit though, as allwillfall pointed out, there's not really a whole lot of precedent.

2) A 3+ re-rollable is better than a straight 2+, especially if the 2+ only lasts for one game turn. I'm glad you stopped him from having a 3+ re-rollable save. Is his shield supposed to be a combat shield, though? With the Iron Halo it doesn't actually do anything, except the special ability.

3) Oh, really?

Marneus Calgar charges a group of Chaos Marines. 5 attacks, and gets 3.33 hits, and about that many wounds. So, Marneus kills 3 Marines on the charge, at Initiative 1. Meaning, he might suffer some damage before he gets to attack.

Jubal charges a group of Chaos Marines. 5 attacks, and gets 3.33 hits. He then scores 2.22 wounds. Meaning, with his special blade, he kills 4 Marines on the charge, at Initiative 6. Meaning, he gets to stop 8 extra attacks that Marneus would have to weather.

Not only that, but Jubal possesses a weapon designed to put down Eternal Warriors, like Abbaddon and Marneus, which Marneus can't do as well, because he can only score 1 wound with each attack.

3.) ya rly.
Marneus gets charged by a chaos dreadnought. He isn't screwed for the rest of the game.
Jubal does the same. He is.

Marneus charges a group of Nob Bikers, or any special character without eternal warrior. He causes instant death and kills as many models as he makes wounds.
Jubal charges a group of Nob Bikers or any special character without eternal warrior. He kills 1 model if he's lucky.

Calgar shoots at a group of chaos terminators. Several die.
Jubal shoots at a group of chaos terminators. None die.

But, for the sake of argument, I removed his 2 wound per wound thing, it was kind of a clunky mechanic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

statu wrote:for a points value i would say at least 500pts, test his rules against armies and see how many time he dies

That is ridiculously overpriced.

Is his shield supposed to be a combat shield, though?

Yes it is, because models with shields look cool.

looking at the newest version i would say about 275

statu wrote:looking at the newest version i would say about 275

...

275? If you're pricing a character at 275 points, he should be able to rip land raiders apart with his bare hands.

Allow me to demonstrate. For 275 points, I can get a character like this:

WS:6 BS:5 S:4(8) T:4 W:4 I:4 A:4 LD: 10 Sv: 2+/ 4++

Eternal Warrior

In one shooting phase, drop a str 10 AP 1 large blast.

In the others, use the following gun: 24" S:4 AP:2 Assault 2

Re-roll to wound with all attacks

YOUR ARMY may choose to pass or fail any Morale test.

Either attack at initiative 4 with 4 S:4, power, and re-roll wounds, or attack at initiative 1 with 5 Str8, power, re-roll wounds.

You can deep strike within 6" of the character with no scatter.

Oh yeah, and take up to 3 honor guard squads

Oh, and look. I have 10 points left over.

what a shame.

I think the chapter tactics should be for the Hit and Run USR.

I play a couple all bike armies, and Hit and Run is way more useful than Furious Charge, especially for space marine bikers. Plus, the army-wide Furious Charge thing is already taken. Having an entire army that can hit and run would be unique to whoever is bringing this special character around (at least until the Dark Eldar codex comes out).

Given that Hit and Run is definitely a more valuable trait than Furious Charge, I think that it would help get the points up to where they need to be.

He will make regular bikers troops, which is good, I would consider making it so that scout bikers would also become troops. That would free up your fast attack for heaps of attack bikes or speeders.

As far as the actual stat go- don't make him a combat character. Make him a SM shooting character, give him some sort of awesome personal weapon, and then another one built into his bike. Sammael has this going on because the Ravenwing, like all SM bike armies, shoot the enemy, rather than assault them.

Frankly, I don't think using the grand khan is such a hot idea. He's just a more diesel Kosarro, which there isn't really a need for. If I was going to make a White Scar character, they really need a bike mounted librarian.

An epistolary (for the 2 powers a turn)

- The Great Hunt- when cast, all White Scar models on bikes benefit from the Hit and Run USR for that turn

- Wrath of Khan- An avenger template he can place anywhere within 12 inches (like a hellhound) Does not count as a shooting attack

- He has an S5, AP3 Astartes grenade launcher w/ the barrage special rule and extended range.


Otherwise, just regular Space Marine librarian on a bike stats.

He can bring the pain in shooting- especially against MEqs, which the bikers, fitted w/ meltas and flamers, stuggle against.

SO, would around 200 be balanced now?
Oh, and silverthorne, I almost considered your advice about hit and run, but then I realized you weren't criticising my character, you were trying to change him into something else entirely.
If you want to make your own character, make your own thread.

You've got lots of friends, don't you?

@ Revelator: Just because you don't agree with everything Silverthorne said, doesn't mean Hit and Run isn't a viable option.

As far as I can tell, this guys' roughly 200-210 points.

@ Silverthorne:
An interesting character idea. My only suggestion is make the grenade launcher pinning rather than barrage, as Barrage is normally only applied to Ordinance/Large Blast weapons.

Why is he WS7, when all the other chaper masters as WS6?

Why does his bike have variable options when no other special character in the game does?

Why can he have a TL-Heavy flamer rather than just a TL-Flamer? On the other side, why doesnt he have a TL-Plasma Connon or TL-Heavy Bolter? (I know this doesnt make much sense but heavy flamers are in the same category of weapons as plasma cannon and heavy bolters)

They way you have worded 'The White Scar' make you only able to reroll armour saves and not invulnerable saves, was this intentional?

Regwon wrote:Why is he WS7, when all the other chaper masters as WS6?

Why does his bike have variable options when no other special character in the game does?

Why can he have a TL-Heavy flamer rather than just a TL-Flamer? On the other side, why doesnt he have a TL-Plasma Connon or TL-Heavy Bolter? (I know this doesnt make much sense but heavy flamers are in the same category of weapons as plasma cannon and heavy bolters)

They way you have worded 'The White Scar' make you only able to reroll armour saves and not invulnerable saves, was this intentional?

1.) Because I wanted him to be a little bit better in CC.
2.) Because he is the White Scars chapter master, and they are famous for their bikes.
3.) Good point
4.) Yes, this was intentional.

I know this is a bit off-topic, but since you named the biker "The Khan's Chariot", I got this vision of a space marine riding to battle on an antigravity chariot, a baroquely insane version of those rocket sleds from the first Star Wars prequel.

Agamemnon2 wrote:I know this is a bit off-topic, but since you named the biker "The Khan's Chariot", I got this vision of a space marine riding to battle on an antigravity chariot, a baroquely insane version of those rocket sleds from the first Star Wars prequel.

Which would be ridiculously awesome.