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Hey, I'm new here so um bear with me.

I'm wondering what you guys think on my army list for the upcoming Ard' Boyz tournament. I'm looking for input and what players think it's strength and weaknesses are, and more importantly, what I need to change. I'll let you guys figure out how I run this list.

HQ-
Command Squad
- Creed, medic, Master of Ordinace, Meltagun

-ELITES-
Guardsman Marbo

Battle Psyker Squad (10 men)

-TROOPS-
WAVE I
Command Squad
- Captain Chenkov, 4x Flamers
Squad Flamer, Powerweapon
Squad Flamer, Powerweapon
Squad Flamer, Powerweapon
Squad Flamer, Powerweapon
Conscript Squad (30 men)


WAVE II
Command Squad
- Powerweapon, 4x Flamers,
Squad Meltagun
Squad Meltagun
Squad Meltagun
Squad Meltagun
Squad Meltagun
Conscript Squad (20 men)

WAVE III
Command squad
- Powerfist, 4x flamer,
Squad Plasmagun
Squad Plasmagun

WAVE IV
Command squad
- Poweweapon, 4x flamer,
Squad Autocannon
Squad Autocannon
Squad Autocannon
Squad Mortar, Flamer
Heavy weapons Squad 3x Lascannons
Heavy Weapons Squad 3x Autocannons

-FAST ATTACK-
Rough Rider Squad (10 man squad)
- Meltabombs, 2x Meltagun

-HEAVY SUPPORT-
Leman Russ
- Lascannon, heavybolter Sponsoons

Leman Russ Demolisher
- Lascannon, Multimelta
-2500-

Thanks in advance, Typhon lord of the zombie plague

I'm guessing Wave 1 and 2 are going to be flanking. What will 3 be doing?

Also, the mortar does not quite fit. Id ditch that squad, change the Power Weapons in Chenkov's Platoon to Power Fists.

How do you plan on getting your RR's across the table without dying?

That army would take a lot of Damage from Pie Plates and Blasts.

You have a lot of bodies but you lack firepower. One of the greatest strengths of an infantry heavy guard army is its ability to take a tremendous number of heavy weapons, something your army is lacking.

Personally, I would ditch all those special CC weapons in your army as they will either have no effect or only make life worse for you. When you get assaulted you want to die so your force can shoot the assault troops during your next turn. Those power weapons will either do nothing as they are relatively ineffective against marines or your opponent will roll bad, you'll roll good and he'll get to punch you again during your turn.

With the points saved from dropping those CC weapons buy some more big guns for your squads.

@ Bebe-paquito: Not quite, that's the reason I didn't share any of my tactics, this armies srength is in it's ability to have almost 200 models charging down the feild at you. Wave I is their to soak firepower and grant a 4+ cover save to those behind them. Which is Wave II. After Wave I has finished dying or my conscript squads have managed to delay you enough Wave II comes in a sweeps away any opposition. Wave III will be following behind, against most opponents mopping up survivors and boosting fire power should need be. Wave IV should stay back and shoot the whole game, however should I take too many casaulties, they will step forward at about turn 4 to capture objectives.

The mortar is there just in case I have the opportunity to place an objective behind terrain from which I can't see, I don't like to wast what little firepower I have, and for 10 pts, why not?

To get my Rough Riders across the table without dying I give them outflank, curtosy of creed granting one unit in my army scout. I can usually manage to charge the turn I arrive.

@ Crazy_Carnifex: Yes it does, this army can get mauled by pie plates, but only the front rank, or Wave I. The rest of the squads, should it be barrage usually go to ground or just stay in area terrain. If I do go to ground I order them to Get Back In the Fight.

@ihockert: True I am lacking many of the heavy weapons and vehicles typical to a guard army, but that's where the surprise is. Many players expect me to sit and shoot you to peices from far away as soon as I say I'm playing guard, when first turn rolls around I have every unit charge forward and run (except for HWPS). This almost always catches my opponent off guard and in 5th ed I'll rarely be seperated by more that 24". Once close I kill opposing squads with massed firepower, or just steam roller over them.

I agree strongly with droping the CC weapons, I only recently tried them and found they have no effect, I think I'm going to swap them out for either another squad or some melta bombs.

Your gonna get hurt by quick, mobile armies. Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar just to name a few. They can shift and focus on one part of your army at a time and LD8 isn't a whole lot when your gonna be taking that many tests. Good luck, i like the concept I just think that in Ard Boyz there are enough bullets to take care of your army.

Ahh..

If you want Blob-guardsmen for fighty you need

1)Stubborn - You have this with chenkov but itll be difficult to cover more than 2-3 blobs. Commissars are quite possibly better (as you need those two for the morale boost

2)Morale boosters - By this I mean re-rolls or/and higher base Leadership. Regimental standards give re-rolls. So do commissars. Commissars also confer stubborn (see above).

3)Priests - Thier re-roll to WS hits is essential in piling on the hits.

4)Furious charge - That +1I is the most important, allowing you to fight on equal ground.. while the +1str is also v.useful increasing damage a good chunk.

5)To a lesser extent;Power weapons - hidden on the squad sergeants. Untargetable, they have a higher base attack & will live on. Same/better stats as a space marine sergeant, with the above abilities. Helps greatly to cut down hordes of MEQ/TEQ where otherwise you could get bogged down.

Buuuuut

If you just want wall-o-bodies then all you need is 1) & 2) - So units like conscripts would just need either;

A regimental standard & chenkov oor (and this is probably better as the base LD is so poor for a conscript @ 5) a commissar lord. 50 bodies + a Lord Commissar = 270pts. Thats 5.2pts a model. One hq & part of one troop choice. This should be able to cover an entire gunline. If you want Fighty IG, the best bet will probably be horded conscripts, a commissar lord & a few Ogryns squads. The Ogryns will make use of the Lord Commissar's LD bubble (a weakness of Ogryns, relativel low LD) while providing a good strong punch. Horde fighty guardsmen could very well die too quickly (but I may be wrong).

But then again, 5 combined infantry squads + a standard commissar is only 0.1pt/model more & you loose 1ld & a targetable/killable IC but you gain a HQ slot, +1ws, +1bs, frag grenades and the ability to field heavy/special weapons. Best for gunlines, you can blob groups of 2-3 squads so that the weaker/cheaper squads confer cover to the more expensive squads.

Hmmm, interesting, I've modified my list a bit, I'm not sure if I want a commisar lord, I'll try a test game today and see. I'll probalby swap an infantry squad and some upgrades for the Commisar Lord and merge the conscripts into a squad of 50. What do you think of my new list?

HQ-
Command Squad
- Creed, medic, Master of Ordinace, Meltagun, regimental standard

-ELITES-
Guardsman Marbo

Battle Psyker Squad (10 men)

-TROOPS-
WAVE I
Command Squad
- Captain Chenkov, 4x Flamers
Squad Flamer
Squad Flamer
Squad Flamer
Squad Flamer
Conscript Squad (30 men)


WAVE II
Command Squad
- Powerweapon, 4x Flamers,
Squad Meltagun, Meltabombs
Squad Meltagun, Meltabombs
Squad Meltagun, Meltabombs
Squad Meltagun, Meltabombs
Conscript Squad (20 men)

WAVE III
Command squad
- Powerfist, 4x flamer,
Squad Plasmagun
Squad Plasmagun
Squad Plasmagun

WAVE IV
Command squad
- Poweweapon, 4x flamer,
Squad Autocannon
Squad Autocannon
Squad Autocannon
Squad Mortar
Heavy weapons Squad 3x Lascannons
Heavy Weapons Squad 3x Autocannons

-FAST ATTACK-
Rough Rider Squad (10 man squad)
- Meltabombs, 2x Meltagun

-HEAVY SUPPORT-
Leman Russ
- Lascannon, heavybolter Sponsoons

Leman Russ Demolisher
- Lascannon, Multimelta

Interesting concept, fun, but dont get your hopes up for going very far with it.

Lash owns this list without even trying, Mech Orks in Kustom Forcefield Battlewagons with burnas and Lootas,,, (shudder)

Mech Vulkan with Hvy Flamers, Flamers, Hvy Flamer packing Dreads and the Redeemer (or two)that you have to depend on bs3 meltaguns to kill after its already at close range.

Air Cav mech vet that just flys right over your waves, fries creed, your tanks and wave 4 with flamers and rocket pods and your tanks with meltas and melta bombs then yawns for the rest of the game as it takes out your troops who cant touch them.

Mech Eldar that also dances around, picks its targets all game long while you run around impotently.

Just think about it, if 250 ork boyz with better toughness, much better CC ability and kustom force fields get owned regularly by the above lists why would you expect to do better with less models, lower tougness and less firepower?

You will definitely catch some people by suprise, and if you get good matchups you might make it past round one, but the competition at regionals will eat this alive.

Just my option of course, but hey, you asked for feedback :-)

Okay, right. Ill go point-by-point.

Typhon wrote:
HQ-
Command Squad
- Creed, medic, Master of Ordinace, Meltagun, regimental standard

A chimera or medic and/or camo cloaks. Its a very expensive and at the moment, very easy to kill unit.

Typhon wrote:
-TROOPS-
WAVE I
Command Squad
- Captain Chenkov, 4x Flamers
Squad Flamer
Squad Flamer
Squad Flamer
Squad Flamer
Conscript Squad (30 men)

Chenkov & the standard provide limited stubborn & re-rolls to LD. Thats good. The flamers are also good, the conscripts again, more bodies I guess. Without a priest, your loosing out on 25% more attacks. A priest is worth 45pts. Thats 9 guardsmen.

30 guardsmen = 60 attacks = 30hits (vs most troops).

With a priest you get 45 hits. With 39guardsmen, you get 78 attacks with 39 hits. Thats less than the 45 using more guardsmen. See what im getting at.

Typhon wrote:
WAVE II
Command Squad
- Powerweapon, 4x Flamers,
Squad Meltagun, Meltabombs
Squad Meltagun, Meltabombs
Squad Meltagun, Meltabombs
Squad Meltagun, Meltabombs
Conscript Squad (20 men)

Meltaguns - your spending 240pts for four bs3 meltaguns. You could spend 100pts for 3 bs4 meltaguns (vets) and the remaining 140 could go on a valkyrie - Meltaguns & infantry squads are not meant to be mixed. Put your melta elsewhere.

Meltabombs come in 1's. So you have 4 meltabomb attacks there. Thats 20pts. If you attack a cruising speed moving vehicle, 0.7 will hit (less than 1). More conscripts - What are they doing exactly?

Krak grenades come in 10's. Less strength, but your only hiting rear armor. 2 Squads @ 20pts. 20 attacks. If you attack a cruising speed moving vehicle, thats 3.3 hits with about 2 glances/pens. See how thats better? Against slower vehicles, the results improve even more. For AV14/14/14 stuff, use vanquishers/melta/massed lascannons.

Typhon wrote:WAVE III
Command squad
- Powerfist, 4x flamer,
Squad Plasmagun
Squad Plasmagun
Squad Plasmagun

A un-combineable 5man platoon command squad is not the place for Powerfists/power weapons. That relatively expensive upgrade will be lost very quickly under fire/attacks.

As for the plasmaguns - Same argument as the meltaguns - There are much better places for plasma weaponary; Vets, CCS, Executioners, stormies etc.

Typhon wrote:WAVE IV
Command squad
- Poweweapon, 4x flamer,
Squad Autocannon
Squad Autocannon
Squad Autocannon
Squad Mortar
Heavy weapons Squad 3x Lascannons
Heavy Weapons Squad 3x Autocannons

Better. The heavy-weapon teams are liabilities, espeically in bigger games. It will be alot more common place (in 2500pt games) to have spare shooting left over to target smaller targets like the HWS. They will die rediculously quickly, drop them.

The infantry squads look better equiped. Why havent you given them a grenade launcher or sniper rifle? It is cost-effective. Dont mix/match weapons within such a small bunch. You want to be able to combine the squads & combining mortar & autocannon squads would be ineffective. Also mortars are a poor weapon anyway.

Typhon wrote:
-FAST ATTACK-
Rough Rider Squad (10 man squad)
- Meltabombs, 2x Meltagun

These guys are really really bad. Thier BIG cavalary models = hard to hide/find cover for. They are WEAK too @ T3 5+ saves. Combine the two.. = dead horses.

Typhon wrote:-HEAVY SUPPORT-
Leman Russ
- Lascannon, heavybolter Sponsoons

Try to match up your weapons. For example, the 1st leman russ could be either;

Leman Russ Eradicator + Hull heavy bolter + Sponson heavy bolters. Anti-troop, through & through.

or

Leman russ vanquisher/exterminator + hull lascannon. Either anti-heavy tank or more reliable anti-transport.

Typhon wrote: Leman Russ Demolisher
- Lascannon, Multimelta

Same as the first leman russ, match your weapons up. While the multi-meltas match range wise, they could be replaced by plasma cannon sponsons to better compliement the Demolishers main weapon. The lascannon isnt needed, so drop it.

Lastly; While you want to field loooads of troops.. theres little synergy between them. Theres no real gunline nor any real offensive force. With that amount of conscripts & chenkov, you could cover a entire 150man+ gunline, filled with heavy weapons - but you need to include them.
With Creed - you can give lots of orders out, but voxes would help alot in this respect - Equip one vox per blob (of combined Infantry squads).

Ideally the PBS runs in a chimera but with that amount of troops, theres ample cover buut as they are targetable (but cheaper) get two 9man squads (1 overseer & 8 psykers).

Hope all that makes sense.

What's the points of getting Chenkov if not for SITNW. Beef up your conscript squads and prepare for the look on your opponents' face when you replace all 50 models (per squad!!)

colonel584 wrote:What's the points of getting Chenkov if not for SITNW. Beef up your conscript squads and prepare for the look on your opponents' face when you replace all 50 models (per squad!!)

A stubborn bubble ability - thats what.

colonel584 wrote:What's the points of getting Chenkov if not for SITNW. Beef up your conscript squads and prepare for the look on your opponents' face when you replace all 50 models (per squad!!)

at 75 points, per squad... sure you gurantee a contested deployment zone objective in 1 of three missions, but you are also just handing KP to the enemy at a very high price. SITNW is ok for one squad, but no way is it worth it x4.

Besides that defeats the whole purpose he is trying to go with of an advancing multi wave agressive guyspam guard army.

Ok, here goes.

@ colonel584: a squad of 20 and a squad of 30 conscripts advancing at you that are stubborn backed by a lot of infantry squads (many also stubborn) is what I'm aiming for. replacing a full squad is rather stupid as the goal for many of my units is simply to make it across the table as they're foot slogging the whole thing. Having to come back on the board edge is just a pain.

@Razerous: Wow, thanks for the comments, some of the best advice I've been given so far.
My command Squad: I think I'm going to drop the MOO for camocloaks and footslogg behind my infantry to actually use my regimental standard. (I'm usually out of range of most of my units very quickly.) I never hit anything with MOO anyway.

Wave I: I don't like to take too many priests, I tried but I didn't really like them. I think I will take two for my two conscript squads as they are the only units in my army aside from rough riders I actually charge with. Do you think I should give them eviscerators, for combat and vehicles?

WaveII Meltaguns, meltaguns, meltaguns. I like them a lot. I've saved my more than once with a melta squads timely interuption. I think I will use krak grenades instead now that I look at them though.

Wave III Yeah, the powerfists gone now, I was just using the model I have, though I need to pick up some psykers, so I'll figure something out then. The plasmaguns are there to kill big things, and the odd MEQ/TEQ. I'm beginning to consider a vet squad or two now, just to bolster the line and wreak no havoc.

Wave IV I agree in my test games I'm begging to notice a trend of murdering my heavyweapons teams. I'll drop them and buy some vets. The mortar is kind of useless and I find it never really does anything *gone* I like the idea of grenade launchers and sniper riftles, so I think I'll add them in.

Rough Riders Outflanking roughriders coming on, charging a devistator squad, light vehicle or anything with armour in the backfeild of my opponent will almost always give me a kill point, or easily wipe out a threat. After that, should they survive I can go tank hunting.

Heavy support I think I'll swap the leman russ for a vanquisher with a lascannon (possibly pask if I have points) and the demolisher will get the plasma sponsoons (something I already have built on it) and I'll ditch the lascannon.

@bigtmac68 I'm not sure many of you guys understand this, unless it's KP's I never group my infantry squads, that way you can only wipe out ten men at a time, so um good luck with your lash...
Mech Vulkan: if you do get close enough to use your flamers, that means I'm also close enough to FRFSRF and flame you back, I just played a list like this, it works in theory, but the units are just too expensive to have much staying power or enough models to last the game. I play marines a lot and am very used to killing them.

Air Cavalry and Eldar, yes you can fly around me picking off units one by one, but 250 models, takes up a lot of space and eventually I will pin you down.

Sorry if I came a little defensivly.

250 orks regualry get owned because they come in big squads of 30, really easy to consentrate fire and obliterate. My guard come in squads of ten, the beauty in that is one squad of marines, or one squad of eldar can rarely destroy the squad outright, meaning to do so another squads adds firepower and then wasts extra. Yeah, I'm expecting competition at regionals to kill me, this is just a test list.

Thanks for the feedback though, you brought up some interesting points that I'll definantly think about.
Here's a revised list *again*

HQ-
Command Squad (215)
- Creed, medic, Camocloaks, Meltagun, regimental standard

Priests x2 (120)
- shotguns and eviscerators

-ELITES-
Guardsman Marbo (65)

Battle Psyker Squad (10 men) (110)

-TROOPS-
WAVE I
Command Squad (100)
- Captain Chenkov, 4x Flamers
Squad Flamer (55)
Squad Flamer (55)
Squad Flamer (55)
Squad Flamer (55)
Conscript Squad (30 men) (120)


WAVE II
Command Squad (50)
- 4x Flamers,
Squad Meltagun, Krak grenades (65)
Squad Meltagun, Krak grenades (65)
Squad Meltagun, Krak grenades (65)
Squad Meltagun, Krak grenades (65)
Conscript Squad (20 men) (80)

Vetran Squad (105)
- 3x Plasmaguns

Vetran Squad (105)
- 3x Plasmaguns

WAVE IV
Command squad (50)
- 4x flamer,
Squad Autocannon, grenade launcher (65)
Squad Autocannon, grenade launcher (65)
Squad Autocannon, grenade launcher (65)
Squad Lascannon, (70)
Squad Lascannon, (70)


-FAST ATTACK-
Rough Rider Squad (10 man squad) (130)
- Meltabombs, 2x Meltagun

-HEAVY SUPPORT-
Leman Russ Vanquisher (220)
- Lascannon, Tank commander Pask

Leman Russ Demolisher (205)
- Plasma Cannon Sponsoons
2500