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Participating in a 1500 point local event this weekend, and barring any glaring errors in judgment this is the list I'm taking. Let me know where I've frakked up.

Farseer, Spirit Stone, Doom, Guide
120 Points

5 Fire Dragons + Exarch with Flamer, Crack Shot
113 Points

8 Dire Avengers + Exarch with 2 Avenger Shuriken Catapult
Wave Serpent with Twin Bright Lances, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones
275 Points

8 Dire Avengers + Exarch with 2 Avenger Shuriken Catapult
Wave Serpent with Twin Star Cannons, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones
265 Points

11 Storm Guardians, 2 flamers; Warlock with Destructor
Wave Serpent with Twin Shuriken Cannons, Spirit Stone
245 Points

3 Guardian Jetbikes, 1 Shuriken Cannon
76 Points

Fire Prism with Spirit Stone
125

Fire Prism with Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stone
135

Falcon with Eldar Missile Launcher, Spirit Stone
145

Total: 1499

Model Count: 46

The one thing I wanted to try and fit in was my Jetbike Autarch for games I want to start off the board. I just don't think it's worth it for losing what I would in this point value(a Fire Prism).

I like this list, I have just started playing Mech Eldar myself so I am by no means experienced but there are a couple of things that you may want to consider.

-If any of the opponents you know that are attending are fielding any form of psykers Runes of Warding is a wise investment.
-What is the thinking behind the Wave serpents different weapons load outs? Are they designed to supplement or complement the transported squads killing power? I prefer the EML in general as it is useful against all targets, but thats just me.
-I imagine the 3 jetbikes are there only to contest objectives, but I think you would be better served by those 76 points if you spent them on beefing up the DA squads and adding upgrades to your tanks, so as to make them more durable and thereby enhance the overwhelming armour in this list.

^^Sadly only theoretical advice, so a grain of salt is recommended (if not a bucket).

Foldalot wrote:I like this list, I have just started playing myself Mech Eldar so I am by no means experienced but there are a couple of things that you may want to consider.

-If any of the opponents you know that are attending are fielding any form of psykers Runes of Warding is a wise investment.
-What is the thinking behind the Wave serpents different weapons load outs? Are they designed to supplement or complement the transported squads killing power? I prefer the EML in general as it is useful against all targets, but thats just me.
-I imagine the 3 jetbikes are there only to contest objectives, but I think you would be better served by those 76 points if you spent them on beefing up the DA squads and adding upgrades to your tanks, so as to make them more durable and thereby enhance the overwhelming armour in this list.

^^Sadly only theoretical advice, so a grain of salt is recommended (if not a bucket).

1. I play in a pretty psyker free area. The most I ever see is a mirror match, and even that is VERY rare. People around here just don't use much, in the last 4 events with Eldar, I've seen Eldrad once. No Librarians, no Daemon Sorcerors. And since this list doesn't really fear Lash(which I imagine I'll eventually see), I don't see much use for it.

2. I prefer the EML's too. Unfortunately I'm still waiting on the FW order I placed last week to arrive. In the meantime these sort of complement what I'm running them with. The Bright Lance is a back up AT in case the Fire Dragons get hit with the failstick. The Star Cannons have some limited AT and also kill marines, and the Cannons are more short range which fits with the Storm Guardians.

3. Originally they weren't included, and I had Holo Fields on the Prisms. I figured increasing my scoring units by one would help, and 3 jetbikes is at cheap as they come.

Well, looks quite good.

However, you will not need four scoring unit. Three units protected by Serpents will be sufficient.
I'd drop the extra weapons from the Serpents and give the Avengers blade storm.

If you play in a tournament environment, give the Farseer runes of warding.

Woah, when I looked through this list I must have just assumed the DA had bladestorm
Bladestorm makes DA utterly deadly and when combined with transports allow you strike hard and fast. VERY hard. Drop whatever needs to be dropped (jetbikes probably) in order to get Bladestorm on both your squads. It allows you to jump out of the transport, Bladestorm one squad to death then hop back in the WS next turn and fly away to get into position for their next strike. Remember that even if you buy it you don't always need to use it but I think you will find that if you take Bladestorm you will find lots of situations where it will come in very handy.

D'oh, that'd be an oversight on my part. Since I duplicated the unit in AB, I forgot to add Bladestorm. Could not figure out why they were coming up so cheap.

Your list is very similar to my tournie list but with a few crucial differences.

HQ
Farseer 55 points
- Runes of witnessing
- Spirit stones
- Doom
- Guide
- Fortune
- Spirit Spear
Total cost = 163 points

Farseer 55 points
- Runes of witnessing
- Spirit stones
- Doom
- Guide
- Fortune
- Runes of Warding
Total cost = 175 points

Elites
6x Fire Dragons 96 points
- Exarch
- Fire Pike
- Tankhunters
- Wave serpent 90 points
o Twin linked Bright Lance
o Spirit Stones
Total cost = 276 points

Troops
10x dire avengers 120 points
- Exarch
- Dual shuriken catapults
- Blade storm
- Wave serpent 90 points
o Twin linked Missile launcher
o Spirit Stones
Total = 282 points

10x dire avengers 120 points
- Exarch
- Dual shuriken catapults
- Blade storm
- Wave serpent 90 points
o Twin linked Missile launcher
o Spirit Stones
Total = 282 points

Heavy support
Fire Prism 115 points
- Holo-fields
- Spirit Stones
Total = 160 points

Fire Prism 115 points
- Holo-fields
- Spirit Stones
Total = 160 points


Total cost 1498 points

This list is a cookie cutter mech list, and whilst not being very original makes a perfect list to compare any other mech list with. I've recently learnt the usefulness of fortune on Wave Serpents, a Farseer can cast fortune when you move flat out to make wave serpents very resilient.

Without runes a farseer will fail to use his power 8.3% of the time. When using spirit stones a farseer will perhaps be making 10-12 of these rolls during a game in which he survives. That means he will very likely fail at least one power usage.

With runes a farseer will fail to use his power 1.9% of the time. Even with a dozen rolls he is unlikely to fail one.


Without runes a farseer will suffer a perils of the warp 5.6% of the time. Of course, his ghosthelm stops most of these, lowering it to 1.87% actual attacks. Of which his invuln save will lower this to a 1.4% chance of taking one wound.

With runes a farseer will suffer a perils of the warp 7.9% of the time. This is because that while the odds of a double one are greatly increased, the only way to get double 6s is to actually roll a triple 6. Of course the ghosthelm stops most of these, lowering it to 2.63% actual attacks. Of which his invuln save will lower this to a 1.97% chance of taking one wound

So Runes of witnessing makes your powers more reliable, as rather than failing almost 1/10 (which considering you'll be casting 2 powers a turn or 4 if you have a double farseer list means you will fail a power) you'll be failing less than 1/50, because even if you roll a double 1 the spell still casts.

A wave serpent is actually more survivable at close range than a holofielded falcon hence why my fire dragons ride in a Wave Serpent not a Falcon. Heres some math to show how melta weaponry (which is the most predominent AT in 5th ed) effects both, and before someone argues that "yeah but at range holofields will be better" I'd like to point out that if the cargo you are delivering is short range AT units than the resilience to long range AT is moot.

Falcon
SM melta at half range 4/6 27.68/32 (rough value) 4/9 = 0.25 Immobilised or worse (average about 4 shots to kill)
IG melta at half range 3/6 27.68/32 (rough value) 4/9 = 0.2 Immobilised or worse (average about 5 shots to kill)

Wave Serpent
SM melta at half range 4/6 (2/6 4/6 + 1/6 2/6) = 0.18 Immobilised or worse (average about 5.5 shots to kill)
IG melta at half range 3/6 (2/6 4/6 + 1/6 2/6) = 0.13 Immobilised or worse (average about 7.5 shots to kill)

Doom and guide increase bladestorms effectiveness to 22 wounds on MEQ's and even higher on lesser troops like Guardsmen, hence why I have a Farseer for each Squad.

I do put holofields on Fire Prisms because in a mech list they are going to be the only thing keeping at long range, so all long range AT will most likely be fired at them, holofields in combination with spirit stones and a handy piece of terrain means they'll almost always be able to shoot every other turn as if they get shaken they can dodge back out of LOS then pop out the turn after.


Don't bother with storm guardians, they are lacklustre in their combat ability and cant charge out a transport, the majority of the time they'll get shot up before they get chance to fire, the only place guardians should ever be used is in monstrous core lists as they make a nice unit to keep a spiritseer in.

Those 3 Guardian jetbikes are to small to effectively contest an objective as they'll be shot of in one turn pretty easily.

Storm Guardians with Flamers can put out just as much dakka as Dire Avengers in certain cirmustances.

if they can only amount equal dakka in certain situations (ie positioning) that makes them more open to being killed of or charged, as with careful positioning Dire Avengers can deploy 18 inches away, shoot and be of in the transport before they can be charged whilst Storm guardians will have to deploy within flamer template range and wont be able to charge, meaning they'll be charged themselves next turn, not a fantastic position to be in. They can in some circumstances be as good damage wise as Dire Avengers but have to be in a much more risky position to do so, I know which one i'd rather pick.

Same damage safer position or same damage sometimes in a more dangerous position

combo wrote: I've recently learnt the usefulness of fortune on Wave Serpents, a Farseer can cast fortune when you move flat out to make wave serpents very resilient.

With runes a farseer will suffer a perils of the warp 7.9% of the time. This is because that while the odds of a double one are greatly increased, the only way to get double 6s is to actually roll a triple 6. Of course the ghosthelm stops most of these, lowering it to 2.63% actual attacks. Of which his invuln save will lower this to a 1.97% chance of taking one wound

O rly?! Where are the rules about not being able to use fortune on flat-out wave-serpents? If its true then :( but fair enough I guess. Im not arguing this point.. I just couldnt find it anywhere.

As for the PotW attacks..7.9% w/ RoWi; Im sure there are more than 4x the amount of variations to get a double 1's/6's on 3d6, discarding the higest. Compared to the original 1.9% you quoted for 2d6 doubles. How are you doing the math?

As for using a ghost helm & then an invunerable save - I personally dont think so, I think its a replacement save but theres no definitive justification either way. Unless I refer back to 4ed, in which the context of that ghosthelm rule was written, where no other save is permitted. But that again, holds little weight. Just my 2 cents

Im not sure your point I said that he can use fortune on wave serpents not that he can't.

That math is not mine, It was quoted from a very old Eldar thread, I saved that as it's really on the ball.

Ghosthelm is allowed as it is not a save at all, it just allows them to ignore the potw on a 3+, the wording is pretty explicit its not even a grey area.

combo wrote:Im not sure your point I said that he can use fortune on wave serpents not that he can't.

Yes, ofcourse. For some strange reason I read usefulness as 'Unusefulness'. Because I am a twit, good sir.

As for the ghosthelm, fair doos. Goodness of being eldar, I guess.


As for the list;

Cut out the GJS. It wont do much apart from give up an easy killpoint. There is nothing else that can be effected by small-arms (from the front while everythings embarked) in your list so all of that firepower will try and be aimed at the jetbikes, = Dead jetbikers. They wont make it to the end of the game to capture things.

Use those points to beef up your dire avenger squad to full. 10men + exarch upgrade. Also get some spirit-stones. Very useful in allowing to cast multiple psychic powers/turn.

Otherwise, I like it. 6 tanks. 4 scoring. 3 of them very resisilent. I know theres no holofields there (the falcon could make use of one) but there are 6 strong vehicles.

combo wrote:if they can only amount equal dakka in certain situations (ie positioning) that makes them more open to being killed of or charged, as with careful positioning Dire Avengers can deploy 18 inches away, shoot and be of in the transport before they can be charged whilst Storm guardians will have to deploy within flamer template range and wont be able to charge, meaning they'll be charged themselves next turn, not a fantastic position to be in. They can in some circumstances be as good damage wise as Dire Avengers but have to be in a much more risky position to do so, I know which one i'd rather pick.

Same damage safer position or same damage sometimes in a more dangerous position

But with the wave serpent tank shocking and mushing enemy squads together, the flamers become alot more dangerous then the bladestorm. This works well against hordes of orks, tyranids, and guard blob squads. Multiple flamer templates are always good against bunched up squads. The only time bladestorm is more effective is against a unit of less than 10 models, where the flamers can't score as many hits.

Bladestorm scores 11 wounds on t4 models at 18 inch range, dual flamers at template range may score 14-16 or so wounds but even that won't wipe out a squad, and on the Orks turn he will get into combat with your storm guardians and win, throwing away a KP. Dire Avengers on the other hand will only be charged if the Ork player calls waagh and rolls well on his run roll.

Also bladestorm doubles with doom and guide getting to 22 wounds on t4 and much higher on t3. Flamers do not scale in the same way.

Flame templates can under certain circumstances do more damage, but im skeptical to whether its worth the higher difficulty in pulling it off, or the fact that you'll throwing away a KP for that little extra damage

I would drop the falcon and give the fire dragons a wave serpent; plus I would drop the exarch and take a couple more regular fire dragons. You already have the storm guardian unit as a great cover clearing template unit, dont dilute the AT/ anti elites power of the fire dragons. For the cost of the exarch you can instead have 2 regular dragons.


Also as already mentioned the runes are a great buy. And dont forget that the most important use for runes of warding is vs the new IG. The IG psycher squad is cheap and very powerful but the runes of warding are a perfect antidote. Runes of wotnessing are a very good buy, I wrote a post on the odds involved in the tactics section and it really does matter on a farseer with stones.

Would also suggest dropping the shuriken cannon off of the one prism, its only going to be useful if the prism loses its main gun. You have better places to spend those points tho.

I do tend to like a BL on a serpent or two since its our best BS unit, but the star cannon on the serpent ... pretty expensive just for the AP value. And once again, shuriken cannons instead of catapults on the serpents are a little iffy. There just aren that many times that the cannons should be getting to shoot. And dont EVER move the serpent slowly just to give the cannon a shot, too good of a way to lose the serpent. Over the course of a game the catapults should get a lot more shots (defensive weapons) so even tho they are only str4 the overall number of wounds done is very similar.

For the prisms, a holo field is a lot more important that a spirit stone. Drop the prism's shuri cannon and stones to add holofields and you will be far ahead. Both holofield and stones would be nice, but dont bother with stones if there isnt a holofield.


Sliggoth

Looks solid, but I don't think you need Shruiken Cannons on the Prisms though. Also, I love EMLs on Serpents.

If you're not going to use Holo Fields on the Falcon you're better off with a Serpent.

It really seems like you're sinking unnecessary points into various things. You can trim the fat in this list and get more into it.

Farseers with just Doom are more points-efficient than both Doom and Guide. Both your Flamers and Avengers have issues wounding, not hitting. BS4 is fine on its own and flamers auto-hit. You're paying 40pts for just one extra spell, making this guy 1.5x more expensive than his leaner cost.

Fire Dragons are basically suicide bombers you take to ace a land raider or MC that you don't like dealing with. Your exarch with a flamer isn't going to accomplish much, anything you're unloading melta into doesn't care about flamers. Crack shot is a waste, unless you're trying to melt Termies in cover you'll never use it. The point of a wave serpent is to be as mobile as possible, it will be extremely difficult to cover 50% of a vehicle or monstrous creature against them.

Dire Avengers need Bladestorm. The end. This works very nicely with Wave Serpents because you can't embark and disembark in the same turn. Disembark, Bladestorm, get back in the serpent next turn.

Flamer Guardians look just fine, love these guys. Insert Doom with them and watch a whole mob of orks burn off the table.

I'm assuming you took the jetbikers because you had the points and didn't know where to put them?

Fire Prisms may like spirit stones, but in my 1500 point games I prefer naked prisms. For 115 points, they're amazing.

As said before, if you're not taking holo-fields, take a Serpent instead of a Falcon.

I rewrote your list slightly, keeping the same theme and point limit. You wind up with a leaner force and another tank.

HQ:
Farseer - Doom - 80
Farseer - Doom - 80

Edit: Swap one of the Doomseers for an Autarch with Meltagun for +1 to reserves, very nice when bringing your army off from reserves and stays at 80 points.

Elite:
Fire Dragons x5 - 190
-Wave Serpent: Spirit Stones, TL Shuricannon

Troops:
10x Dire Avengers - 282
-Exarch upgrade: 2x Cats, Bladestorm
-Wave Serpent: Spirit Stones, TL EML

9x Dire Avengers - 270
-Exarch upgrade: 2x Cats, Bladestorm
-Wave Serpent: Spirit Stones, TL EML

10x Storm Guardians: 2x Flamers - 252
-Warlock: Destructor
-Wave Serpent: Spirit Stones, TL Scatter Laser

Heavy Support:
Fire Prism - 115
Fire Prism - 115
Fire Prism - 115

Total: 1499

Replaced your Falcon with another Prism, making it less costly to link them when tank hunting or wanting S7 AP3 large blasts, and in case one goes down you have a third.

Your Dragons now have their own Serpent and they're very happy about it.

Your Dire Avengers now have a reason to have an Exarch with them due to Bladestorm so they're also happy.

You now have two Doomseers to boost wounds, being able to support deathmaking against two separate units makes your Guardians and Avengers happier, too. Two Doomseers will help you far more than guiding a single unit of BS4 Avengers.

Another edit: Unless you took the Autarch, which helps tremendously when coming in off of reserves as a tactical maneuver to screw with your opponent.

Kirbinator's list is very cost-effective.
One of the best mech Eldar lists at the 1500 pt level.
I'd take an Autarch just for the bonus she adds to reserve rolls.

wustenfex wrote:I'd take an Autarch just for the bonus she adds to reserve rolls.

Same here

I love my opponent's face when the board is blank turn 1 and the majority of my army comes in at my leisure on turn 2.

Kirbinator wrote:

wustenfex wrote:I'd take an Autarch just for the bonus she adds to reserve rolls.

Same here

I love my opponent's face when the board is blank turn 1 and the majority of my army comes in at my leisure on turn 2.

Yeah, this particularly useful against a shooty army that starts first turn, or a drop podded force.

The big advantage for staying in reserve is that you can attack his weaker flank.