Vulkan 'Ard Boyz List (with Bikes)

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**Gornall**

Slight twist on the standard Vulkan List. The hope is that this list will be able to dish out a lot of mobile/short-range firepower and hit pretty hard with the 2 HQs. I've been trying a SS Libby with Nullzone, but I have to agree with most people in that Vulkan is hard to pass up in a competitive list, especially of this size. I will definately miss the Pyschic Hood (I'm expecting one Lash List and an Eldrad/Avatar/Wraithguard list at my Qualifier), but I think the ability to mitigate my bad dice will hopefully offset it. Let me know if I went overboard on meltas/flamers, but I tried to keep some long-range shots to keep transports at bay. I'm not expecting any of the serious Melta Vet builds from IG at the Qualifier, which is good as I'm not really sure how I'd deal with that. Overall, my FLGS is fairly casual in nature, but I'm expecting a ringer or two. Any general attempts so I don't embarass myself are greatly appreciated.

HQ
Vulkan Hestan (planning on running with the Termies, but could add punch to LR Tactical Squad)
Bike Captain with Relic Blade, Digital Weapons, and Hellfire Rounds

Troops
Bike Squad (7 Bikes + MM AB) with Plasmagun, Meltagun, and PF (Cleaner)
Tactical Squad with Flamer, Multimelta, PF, and Rhino (Push with the main thrust)
Tactical Squad with Flamer, Plasma Cannon, PF, and Rhino (Objective Camper)
Tactical Squad with Flamer, Missile Launcher (to ride in the LR)

Elites
Terminator Assault Squad with TH/SSx5 (Hunters/Problem solvers)
LRC with MM

Fast Attack
Landspeeder HF/MM (Deepstrikers)
Landspeeder HF/MM
Attack Bike x2 with MM (will shadow the LRC and avoid LOS)

Heavy
Vindicator w Dozer Blade (Another problem solver)
Landraider w MM (Home objective camper/sniper)
Predator w Lascannon sides (Transport Popper)

**Gornall**

Any input at all? Do I have a good balance of weapons or do I need more/less meltas?

**Hulksmash**

Unless your combat squading your bikes and putting the plasma and melta in different squads i'd use one or the other. I like your list though i'm not a fan of flamer/mm speeders but you do have Vulcan so I get it.

**bigtmac68**

Your list is a little unfocused. The heavy support is a little bit of everything but not a lot of anything. You have actually a low amount of multi meltas for a vulcan list.

The godhammer land raider is nice but I would recomend instead a second ac/lc predator and use the points saved for more speeders or bikes.

Personally I think a trip pred mix works even better with the profusion of mech as that allows you to pop those transports from range and get at the juicy bits with the bikes or flamers from the speeders. I am a huge fan of MM/HF speeders they have done wonders for me with my own vulkan list.

The problem is that a single large bike squad is VERY vulnerable to PBS and assaults. If you want to use bikes and rhinos go for three small bike squads with twin melta and MM attack bike. This maximizes the utility of vulkan, ups your scoring units and makes them less vulnerable by splitting them up.

If you want a single squad then make it a comand squad and use some of the saved points above to make it a devastating assault unit.

T5 models with FNP are quite difficult to get rid of especially when used in conjuction with your TH/SS terminators.

**eltharion72**

First, drop the bikes. 3 TACS are fine. Second drop the pred and put in another vindi, then use the LR (make it an LRC/MM) to spearhead. This puts pressure on your opponent to kill it before it reaches his lines and takes pressure off your speeders and bikes. Second, possibly drop the rhinos and get Razors (possibly upgrade to TLAC to stun vehicles on the way in and camp objectives.) Then give 2 TACS PC/PG as firebases to cover said advancing LRC and Razors. Third, use 4 TH/SS and 2 LC termies/ Vulkan in the termie squad to take advantage of initiative and to get your heavy hitter to the front line quickly. Just some ideas.

**Khornatedemon**

no offense man, but, I would pretty much ignore everything eltharion said. 3 tacs are not fine at 2500 points. These days the preds are more likely to net you better results than vindi's by popping transports without having to get into multi-melta range. Who needs razorbacks when tac squads can pillbox out of rhino's? PG/PC in a vulkan list?

My feelings with bikes is that if your not going to entirely run them as your troops then a few small squads for fast melta's are your best bet. Speedy triple melta squads that can pop a transport and charge into the occupants are awesome. Especially against guard. I wouldnt bother with anything but melta's on them. You can get anti-infantry elsewhere in the marine list.

Most of my suggestions would mirror bigtmac's. Drop the vindi and the standard LR. I would suggest more preds with the heavy slots.

I generally feel speeders are better than attack bikes due to the flamer. They are more expensive but offer a much more threatening payload to pretty much any army.

Your capt might be better served with a combi-melta or flamer instead of the hellfire rounds if you take a ranged upgrade at all.

if you do use tac squads I would equip them all like your first squad. If your going to bring power fists they are probably better served in bike squads as generally you arent getting your marines out of their transport unless its a) blown up or b) a nice juicy target that you can reliably kill with bolters presents itself and your in no danger of return fire. I generally never get my squads out unless i have to.

I think something like this might be more effective:

Vulkan

bike capt with relic blade and combi-melta

terminator squad in LRC with MM and EA

3x bike squads of 4 bikers and 1 attack bike, all melta's

2x tac squads in rhinos with flamer/mm

3 AC/Las preds

2x2 MM/HF speeders

that comes to 2445, so you can add 2 powerfists if you want. You could even go with a redeemer and drop the extra armor if you wanted and get a 3rd fist for all your bikers. Melta bombs might be a good idea for the bikes if anything.

**bigtmac68**

Khornatedemon has it exact. Eltharion is advising a marine list with vulkan in it, not a vulkan list. That is always a bad idea.

If your going to invest the points in Vulkan, then get the use out of him. MM/HF speeders, MM bikes, Meltas and flamers, thats what its all about!!!

Predators always work better in numbers. 1 or even 2 preds will often dissapoint.

**imweasel**

Is the best loadout for preds going more ac/las instead of ac/hb?

**bigtmac68**

For Ard Boyz this year yes. Unless your local metagame is still dominated by hordes, an LC/AC Pred is a fantastic transport killer with very good range and fairly good survivability.

**Danny Internets**

imweasel wrote:Is the best loadout for preds going more ac/las instead of ac/hb?

Depends on the points level. AC/HB is dirt cheap so it lends itself well to a 1750 list. AC/las is much, much more threatening to vehicles, of which there will be many in good 2500 army. Furthermore, they provide dependable long-range firepower, which Vulkan lists typically lack. And because they stay affordable, losing them doesn't cripple the army.

**Gornall**

I definately like the ideas (and definately the sample list) and will try to incorporate them before the 11th. I have some model restrictions, as basically what you see in the list is what I have assembled. I have a Ravenwing Box that I need to bust open anyway, and could probably pick up another Predator or two. Getting them ready to go before the 11th might be tough though.

I kinda forgot about PBS simply because I don't expect one at my Qualifier and I'm used to having a Libby in the list. It's definately something I need to think about more though, especially if I somehow manage to get out of my store.

I like the idea of the 3 Melta Bike Squads, but doesn't that make them very vulnerable to losing upgrades early, or is that even something to worry about? Until I get all the Bike Squads finished, maybe I can adjust my Bike Squad to be more effective... I could add the extra biker and another Meltagun, along with the Captain's Combi-Melta and then combat squad during games where I'm worried about getting tied up or getting hit with stuff like PBS. The Captain and a Melta could go in one squad while the Sarg (with either a Combi-Melta or a PF), a Melta, and the MM AB go in the other. It's not as nice as the 3 Melta squads, but it's something that I think might work for the Qualifier.

I'm a huge fan of the AC/LC Predators, and will definately try to add at least another in ASAP. However, will I have enough templates for horde armies if I drop the Vindy? I guess the extra Speeders will help with that.

The only thing I'm kinda balking at is dropping the LR. I like the idea of being able to move and still shoot effectively (one of the reasons I like Bikes, Speeders, and the Vindy), something the LR has over the Predator. That and it's armor and transport ability allow it to become a scoring bunker or it can screen the bikes and other vehicles from long range fire. That and it prevents my opponent from just T-ing off on the LRC with Termies, especially if I decide to run Vulkan with the Tactical squad to provide a little extra oomph. It's something I'll have to play test over the next couple of weeks to figure out.

Once again, thanks for all the input and I'll let you know what I come up with.

**imweasel**

Just remember, hard boyz is wysiwig with no painting requirements.

Assemble and get it going!

Only two more saturdays left to practice!

**Gornall**

Yup... gonna try to get crackin', but with work and being out and about the weekend of the 4th (leaving just tomorrow and whatever games I can get in during the weekdays), time is still an issue. For my local Qualifier, I would rather take an unoptimized list that I'm fairly familiar with rather than take a completely new list that I haven't played a game with yet. I'm hoping that I can get some models assembled this weekend and catch some people to play over the next two weeks before the 11th.

Even if I can't get it assembled and practiced with in time for the 11th, I can still have it to play with some of the more competitive people in my area and get used to those type of games for future tournaments.

**Gornall**

Definately need to do some tuning. Played it a few times yesterday and got hit pretty hard during a KP game against a shooty Marine horde that was spamming Lascannons. I wasn't agressive enough the first turn and he got lucky with his shooting, leaving me unable to tie up his shooters.

**Black Blow Fly**

I'm not sold on three bike squads for troop choices. Even if they turbo boost they will drop to massed small arms fire. That leaves you with two tactical squads to hold objectives. I think you really need at least four solid troop choices to do well. Maybe what you have presented here is good enough for the first round but I think it will fold in the second round. What you really need is at least three tactical squads in rhinos. They are much better than bikes at being resilient and holding objectives. You'll still need another troop choice. If you go with three tactical squads you can load up on multi-melta/meltagun/combi melta to synergize with Vulkan. I would drop the plain Jane landraider as suggested... it doesn't synergize with the rest of your list. If you are going to take Vulkan then design your list to get the most out of him.

G

**Lowinor**

bigtmac68 wrote:Khornatedemon has it exact. Eltharion is advising a marine list with vulkan in it, not a vulkan list. That is always a bad idea.

If your going to invest the points in Vulkan, then get the use out of him. MM/HF speeders, MM bikes, Meltas and flamers, thats what its all about!!!

Predators always work better in numbers. 1 or even 2 preds will often dissapoint.

While I'd disagree with Eltharion's advice of taking a Plasma Gun in a list with Vulkan (due to how good he makes Flamers and Meltas; you only need to touch four marines with a Vulkanized Flamer to get the same kill power as plasma), taking a non-MM heavy weapon in a Vulkan list isn't necessarily a bad idea, especially if you take Razorbacks.

Vulkan is strong enough on his own that you don't need to squeeze every possible Melta/Flamer out of the list to get your points back. It helps, but there are places where the Vulkanized weapon isn't necessarily optimal. The heavy weapon slot in a Tactical squad taking a Razorback comes to mind.

But yes, no Plasma Guns in a list with Vulkan. No point to them.

**Gornall**

Thanks for the feedback... I'm making some changes based on what people have said and kind of the two Night Fight missions, which somewhat mitigates the long range firepower of the first turn, making the Vindicator more viable to get within range and help with with the LRC linebreaker. I think the three Tacticals coupled with the large Bike Squad should provide enough troops to hold objectives. You're right about it not being a extremely hard list, but I'm not an amazing player anyway, so if I were to get out of my local store, it would be a miracle anyways.

HQ
Vulkan Hestan
Bike Captain with Relic Blade

Troops
Bike Squad (8) with MM AB and Meltagun x2 and PF
Tactical Squad with PF, Flamer, MM, and Rhino
Tactical Squad with PF, Flamer, MM, and Rhino
Tactical Squad with PF, Flamer, PC, and Rhino

Elite
6 TH/SS Termies w LRC w MM

Fast
Landspeeder w MM/HF x2
Landspeeder w MM/HF x2

Heavy
Predator w Lascannon Sides
Predator w Lascannon Sides
Vindicator w Dozer Blade (or another Predator)

**eltharion72**

I find it interesting that people assume that advising a marine list with Vulkan in it rather than a pure Vulkan list is "bad". First, you are correct, Vulkan was added to my list after playing it for a year and seeing that I could benefit from his abilities coupled by the fact he costs nearly as much as my captain. I don't need to utilize Vulkans ability to the fullest since my army played strong to begin with and his addition just made it that much stronger. So I guess, thank you all for showing me the error of my ways. I'm going to go build my generic "off the internet" 40K army just like everyone else does. You guys don't need advice you just need a post of all the popular "cookie cutter" armies to play with.

**Julnlecs**

yes eltharion if we want to win, which we do, we just need a post of all the popular "cookie cutter" armies to play with.

**combo**

Min/maxing is the common in most sports and games Eltharion, people will always be trying to make something as efficient and as powerful as possible.

**EzeKK**

combo wrote:Min/maxing is the common in most sports and games Eltharion, people will always be trying to make something as efficient and as powerful as possible.

If its spammed then it works better than what you can come up with.

The PC is probably going to be bad for the points. I don't see the point of the bikes. If they go CC units then they might do well but bikes are shooters for the most part, I just don't get why this unit shouldn't be another tac squad.

TH/SS termies are good. Landspeeders are good. Predator is meh, I would run dakka preds. and maybe try to fit in dreads w/ MM's.

**Gornall**

I like the PC for only 5 points, simply because it can threaten Termies DSing in, force cover/invulnerable saves on hordes, or even threaten light transports if there is nothing better to do. For the price, I like bringing one to a list just because it's so flexible.

The Bikes are a nice unit, as they provide a mobile, relentless shooting force that can mount 2 MGs and 1 MM and are scoring. They are really great at popping transports and then charging whatever was inside. They can't take dedicated CC units of course, but their toughness makes them a nice tarpit for basic infantry and the Captain and PF Sarg reliably put out wounds, forcing leadership checks. They provide a nice counter punch to the TH/SS Termies IMO.

On the Predator types and the Dreads, I'm not really sure. I've ran a Dakka Predator in smaller games before and it did pretty well, but I just think there will be too many things with AV for it to be all that effective. I've used Dreads before and I've just never been able to get them to work for me.

**bigtmac68**

Yes the dakka pred is great at 1750 or 1850 but at 2500 with so many players running mech, those lascannons will really come in handy.

The bikes give you a very verstatile little strike force now that you can combat squad them. A captain with a relic blade and a few bikers is an excellent little cc unit that will clear off combat squads or lone objective holders pretty easilly. The melta combat squad has a 30" threat range with three twin linked melta shots. The fact that they are troops just makes things better.

Its not the most perfect list in the world, but its a solid little force I think.

For what its worth I like it and if your are comfortable with it and your playing round one in a less than highly competitive environment then you should have a fun time with it, and thats all that really matters.

**Black Blow Fly**

I like the new list a lot better !

G

**Gornall**

Thanks for the feedback!

**Gornall**

So I managed to do alright with this list at two 'Ard Boyz over the weekend, placing 4th in one. The third place guy is probably not going on, so it looks like I might be going to the second round. Over the course of some practice games and the actual tournament games, I had problems with a Marine Horde/SAFH and Horde/Loota Orks. I did not face any IG. My biggest problem was that I couldn't put out enough shots/templates at anything beyond 24" to hurt a horde opponent, and getting within flamer range left me open to eat too many charges from the Orks.

I've been toying with some ideas such as working in a DP Ironclad Dreadnought with HFx2 or a Redeemer carrying either a Tactical or PAGKs in it to help clear out hordes. I'm also thinking about going with two medium-sized Bike Squads to see how that works out.

Here's an idea for adding another Bike Squad:

HQ
Vulkan
Bike Captain with Relic Blade

Troops
Bike Squad with Sarge (PF), 5 Bikers (MGx2), and MM AB
Bike Squad with Sarge (PF), 6 Bikers (MGx2), and MM AB
Tactical Squad with PF, Flamer, MM, and Rhino
Tactical Squad with PF, Flamer, MM, and Rhino

Elite
Terminator Assault Squad (TH/SSx6) w LRC w MM

Fast
Landspeeder Squadron (2) with MM/HF
Landspeeder Squadron (2) with MM/HF

Heavy
Predator w Lascannon Sides
Predator w Lascannon Sides
Vindicator w Dozer Blade

**Fearspect**

I saw a list out there that was really intriguing. It goes something along these lines:

Vulkan
Bike Captain with command squad

5x TH/SS Terminators in LRR
5-6x TH/SS Terminators in LRR

and then all bike troops with the rest of the points, with some pairs of MM attack bikes in the fast (although Landspeeders would do just as well).

No need for Powerfists in any of your troops, the Terminators fight, the bikes are something you do not really want in combat anyway - their job is to dance away from the enemy and fill them with melta fire.