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So are Tyranids shafted until they get a new codex? With the meta shift towards melta mech and such, do they really stand a chance? As a long time nid player I hope that they can compete, but it seems like its a uphill battle against mech.

Cons against mech
-can't pop them at distance
-Melta/ mass high str-low ap ( I'm looking at you executioner, vendetta and a billion Vulkan twin-linked multi-meltas)
-If you pop a transport then next turn you get fried by what ever was is in it

Yes you can stun the crap outta stuff but that still doesn't solve the "I kill the transport in hth, then you just get out and get a bunch of melta to the face"

Things that have worked for nids in the past just don't seem to cut it anymore ie. nidzilla and stealer shock. Actually against a none mech opponent I'm sure these builds are still viable, but against mech they seem lack luster.

Please tell me I'm wrong. Any ideas on how nids can compete, or is it really over against mech until a new dex?

lowkii wrote:So are Tyranids shafted until they get a new codex? With the meta shift towards melta mech and such, do they really stand a chance? As a long time nid player I hope that they can compete, but it seems like its a uphill battle against mech.

Cons against mech
-can't pop them at distance
-Melta/ mass high str-low ap ( I'm looking at you executioner, vendetta and a billion Vulkan twin-linked multi-meltas)
-If you pop a transport then next turn you get fried by what ever was is in it

Yes you can stun the crap outta stuff but that still doesn't solve the "I kill the transport in hth, then you just get out and get a bunch of melta to the face"

Things that have worked for nids in the past just don't seem to cut it anymore ie. nidzilla and stealer shock. Actually against a none mech opponent I'm sure these builds are still viable, but against mech they seem lack luster.

Please tell me I'm wrong. Any ideas on how nids can compete, or is it really over against mech until a new dex?

1) Str8 barbed stranglers for popping transports
1b) Str6 many-shot devourers/deathspitters to completely disable transports

2)Massed hordes can actually prevent one-two shot weapons like that actually getting within range of your MC's.

3)Not if its from a barbed strangler (outranges most weapons).
3b) Not if the squad gets shot at again, but a second barbed strangler, annhilating it.

The only real & main problem tyranids have vs mechenised lists are AV14 armor vehicles and/or fast moving vehicles.

Razerous wrote:

The only real & main problem tyranids have vs mechenised lists are AV14 armor vehicles and/or fast moving vehicles.

that and you know, actually doing anything with said barbed stranglers. 1/3 chance of actually hitting. avg 2D6 is 7" which will give you a 4" scatter 2/3 of the time which will take you off of most transports with the center. Then against av12 you only do anything 50% of the time. It'll statistically take what, 6 barbed stranglers to hurt a transport a turn? And thats not taking cover into account.

The maximum amount of s8 barbed stranglers you'll have is 3. For popping transports, you'd have to not deviate off of it, roll above the armore(5+ on Chimeras , 4+ on Rhinos and Razorbacks), and then roll high enough on the damage chart to kill them. Stunning or shaking, sure, but destroyed is a rare result. 36" doesn't outrange lascannons, missile launchers, railguns, etc. You won't see a preponderance of those unless you face Tau, but range isn't really a pro or con here.

with Chimera walls I wiuldn't be surprised if shooting them accomplished nothing in the long run. If you shot the stranglers at the transports, they weren't shot at infantry and vice versa.

Agree about armor 14 vehicles though. There was literally nothing I could do but watch as my Venom Cannon fire bounced harmlessly off of a battlewagon full of Meganobs with claws that just drove up, let the Nobs out and multicharge genestealers and warriors, cause 19 wounds to my 1, wipe them out before even fearless wounds kicked in(another thing I hate about 5th edition) and then take down my Hive Tyrant in the enxt turn. Landraider born assault Terminators are just as brutal.

I played Nidzilla for a tournament with my ig and I gotta say RUNNING STRAIGHT AT MELTA AND PLASMA IS A BAD IDEA!!!! Move completely to Strangler/Venom Cannons or twin link one. Have 1-2 Dakkafexs with your Hive tyrant max. That's just cuz you don't wanna get close. Because if you let my vets get within or need 18 inches its probly too late to stop them.

I'd suggest a wall of gaunts or stealers to hold them up. Get all in there treads as they come forward then shootem dead. I personally Played nids myself for alittle (Bought an army off a friend getin out of the game) I made a pretty good list that was balanced takin out most things.

it was 2000

1 Hive Tyrant with 2 Guard a Venom Cannon and Barbed Strangler

1 Flying DakkaTyrant

3 Heavy carnis 2 barbed/Venom 1 Dakka

1 Elite Dakka

3 Units of bout 10 Genes

1 Large terma gaunt unit and some homogaunts just cuz I had point lieing round.

That was a decent list I found. Maybe I'm wrong I didn't play long but I have beat them to the dust a few times.

1b) Str6 many-shot devourers/deathspitters to completely disable transports

Doesn't work for Necrons and it sure as hell doesn't work for Tyranids.

If your entire army has to fire on transports and still needs to get lucky to have any effect then you're not in a very good position to do, well, anything.

3b) Not if the squad gets shot at again, but a second barbed strangler, annhilating it.

Um, isn't the strangler only AP 5? The vast majority of infantry in transports have at least a 4+ save, though 3+ is even more likely. You are massively overestimating the strength of this weapon, if it even hits.

Danny Internets wrote:

3b) Not if the squad gets shot at again, but a second barbed strangler, annhilating it.

Um, isn't the strangler only AP 5? The vast majority of infantry in transports have at least a 4+ save, though 3+ is even more likely. You are massively overestimating the strength of this weapon, if it even hits.

if it hits it will destroy orks, guard, DE, and non aspect warrior eldar. I was completely underwhelmed with barbed stranglers vs marines, even when I got that lucky kill on an HQ with it.

Adding to that, no one runs Guardians and DE players are all but extinct. Basically good against IG and Orks, both of which will get cover saves after being forced to disembark if the owner knows what he's doing.

Hmm, slow replys so...

I have little issues popping transports with my nids. Sure they are not quite so good at it as chaos or SM or such, but they can get the job done.

i got to battle with 3 zoanthropes with warp blast, and have as of yet to not be able to pop LRs or Monoliths with them, by the end of the game at least.

My hive tyrant also uses a warp blast as well. So i have 4 potential str 10 shots plus the 3 barbed strangler shots.

And thats just shooting. At 1500 pts i have 6 MC out there and rending little bugs. Even IG has issues killing all that before a single carnifex/HT kills their last tank and then wrecks their battle lines.

i think nids are ok, not the best but ok. They just require a little change in their meta game in 5th.

go bugs!

My thoughts have been posted elsewhere, but I think Nids just need to be played differently rather than claiming that they cannot compete. But once you follow a couple of guidelines, they are still very good.

1) You can't kill transports (or really any vehicle) with shooting, don't bother trying. Against a mech army you shoot the units that can hurt you at range to shake them and move toward the objectives. If there are not units that can hurt you at range (b/c everyone is drinking the full-melta coolaid) run toward the objective. At least half of the time you're better off running than shooting.

2) Screen with the little bugs. 32 spinegaunts is 160 points. Make you opponent have to kill them to get to your more important bugs with their CC and short ranged weapons. Make them waste their long range shooting on gaunts.

3) Profit

The days of Nidzilla just walking up the table and winning are gone (and for that I'm glad as it got pretty boring) but they can still compete. Kill Point games against mech are tough, but Nids really shine in objective games.

Here's how bugs are still effective and how I use them:

1. Cover saves for everybody! Gaunts give cover to warriors, warriors give cover to tyrants/fexes, there's 32 gaunts to cut down which means that by the time the shield is gone the big guys are in range to put hurt on

2. Outflank outflank outflank.... Even if it is against IGMarines. It makes people nervous.

3. Run everything for 2 turns. Have a few dedicated shooters and just maximize close to medium range firepower as soon as you can.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Here's how bugs are still effective and how I use them:

1. Cover saves for everybody! Gaunts give cover to warriors, warriors give cover to tyrants/fexes, there's 32 gaunts to cut down which means that by the time the shield is gone the big guys are in range to put hurt on

2. Outflank outflank outflank.... Even if it is against IGMarines. It makes people nervous.

3. Run everything for 2 turns. Have a few dedicated shooters and just maximize close to medium range firepower as soon as you can.

exactly i prefer to use fexes for tankbusting especially the crusher broods in apoc, A particular tatic that has worked for me is using the mass walls of gaunts to corner vehicles or force them into a nid mc's path if they get out theirs some hormies or stealers in the case of a landraider, waiting for them

Hitting against rear armour have made genestealers much more effective now against vehicles, which is good because we have no guns which are even remotely effective at wrecking anything over AV12.

Railguns wrote:Agree about armor 14 vehicles though. There was literally nothing I could do but watch as my Venom Cannon fire bounced harmlessly off of a battlewagon full of Meganobs with claws that just drove up, let the Nobs out and multicharge genestealers and warriors, cause 19 wounds to my 1, wipe them out before even fearless wounds kicked in(another thing I hate about 5th edition) and then take down my Hive Tyrant in the enxt turn. Landraider born assault Terminators are just as brutal

The venom cannon is a great weapon against battlewagons. Their massive av12 side arcs and open topped status (so the venom cannon penetrates) mean they are easy meat. Combination of gaunt assault screens and implant attack tyrants are a meganobs worst nightmare (actually, and type of nob, biker included).

Land raiders are much more difficult, but whats inside has to take a LD check to assault your tyrants, and this can be very hard to make with a choir nearby. Alternatively, more gaunt assault screens are always a good idea.

To respond to the OP, I have only played Nidzilla-lite Tyranids in 5th and have found them to be very effective (at 1500pts in dear old blighty). Most of the tricks and tactics I have come up with are very 5th ed specific though. I'm actually fairly nervous that a new codex would invalidate a lot of my tactics.

Nids struggle vs. fast mech. But it can be done.

To respond to the OP, I have only played Nidzilla-lite Tyranids in 5th and have found them to be very effective (at 1500pts in dear old blighty). Most of the tricks and tactics I have come up with are very 5th ed specific though. I'm actually fairly nervous that a new codex would invalidate a lot of my tactics.

I also play zilla-lite... I have a tyrant and 3 fexes, 2 of which are elites. That leaves a lot for genestealers and gaunts and especially warriors (which are my MC cover saves).

Warp Blast?

Though Zoeys compete with Carnifexes as heavy support, I don't know how many players run Zoeys anymore.

I've never had good luck with zoans so I don't use any. To be completely honest, whenever I use biovores I end up wrecking or blowing up at least 1 AV13 tank or at least a dozen MEQ's per game. Zoans are great for a very few things and with my playing style they really don't work very well at all.

I play w/6 MC's, 2 of which are Tyrants and then 2 113 or less Fexes and 2 Heavy fexes (though one elite fex goes to heavy to fit in my warriors). I've had great success with my build which is genestealer free actually. But I do the successive screen (gaunts>warriors>Mc's) and it's worked well. I've even added some rippers so it's actually (rippers>gaunts>warriors>mc's) which means everything has an invul save.

The biggest problem I've had is actually on Spearhead deployment as it takes to long to bring my shooting to bear from my warriors and leaves me very vulnerable for 2 turns, especially against a shooty player.

template spam or go 100% hth. Thats nids of 5th edition

It was the closed top version, and some sort of wider conversion, so the side shots were harder to get. I did get a volley off at the side, but it accomplished nothing. Gaunt assault screens don't seem to work that well anymore in my experience. His Meganob +Ghazkull unit was severely expensive, but I'm pretty sure that a gaunt swarm would kill none of them, have at least a dozen Gaunts killed, then lose almost that much more to fealress wounds. Even with Implant attacks I don't think a Tyrant could kill enough of them at once before the remaining Nobs turn him to Synapse soup with powerklaws.

I have a question about the successive cover saves. Does screening Warriors w/ Gaunts, and MC's w/ Warriors provide a cover save to the enemy models my creatures shoot at?

lowkii wrote:So are Tyranids shafted until they get a new codex? With the meta shift towards melta mech and such, do they really stand a chance? As a long time nid player I hope that they can compete, but it seems like its a uphill battle against mech.

Cons against mech
-can't pop them at distance
-Melta/ mass high str-low ap ( I'm looking at you executioner, vendetta and a billion Vulkan twin-linked multi-meltas)
-If you pop a transport then next turn you get fried by what ever was is in it

Yes you can stun the crap outta stuff but that still doesn't solve the "I kill the transport in hth, then you just get out and get a bunch of melta to the face"

Things that have worked for nids in the past just don't seem to cut it anymore ie. nidzilla and stealer shock. Actually against a none mech opponent I'm sure these builds are still viable, but against mech they seem lack luster.

Please tell me I'm wrong. Any ideas on how nids can compete, or is it really over against mech until a new dex?

I can feel your pain my friend. Forgive me if i am repeating anything you have already received. I haven't actually read through all the responses to this post, i am pretty much just replying to yours.
I don't think that Tyranids are a waste of time these days, i do still win with them, but mostly against Eldar or Black Templar. I do however find that fighting one of my Friends Space Marine army's rather a tough nut to crack (Crimson Fists). The basic problem i have with SM is that the Land Raider is hard as nails & the Drop Pod is one hell of a pest.
It seems to me that realistically the only real way to beat these Mech army's that keep popping up these days is with a MC list. Even if your opponent has got loads of Lascannons etc, they are still only gonna bring one down a turn. So i find anyway.
The general way i tend to play Tyranids now is to accept the loss of at least a few of my big guys. I tend to throw my Winged Tyrant at the unit I'm most scared of (usually Termies with TH & Kantor in a LR) & accept the fact he is gonna die pretty much straight away. If he takes a few guys with him, bonus! The key i find is to make sure that he is closely (but not too closely) followed by my Dakka/Devil tyrant that can quite easily shoot the crap out of anyone left. The key seems to be, sacrifice something big to get the nuts out of the shell, then smash the nuts! In the mean time i tend to be running my Stealers up the field (which most people seem to ignore) in the hope of timing their assaults with my Lictors arriving. Either that or Scouting the Genestealers. It makes them really expensive but most of my opponents seem to be more worried about the 5/6 MC's running straight at them rather than the little guys. I really don't like Gaunts anymore. I find that every time i use them they are a waste of points. Points much more valued if spent on Stealers.
To summarize - Its tough. I charge everything i have at the heart of the enemy with a few guys outflanking (GS) or deepstriking (Lictors) & if i can't beat them with one huge alien whack then I'm taking as many of them with me as possible!
If it's an Objective mission i tend to focus purely on Killing the enemy then run at the objectives with what I've got left. If anything.
Maybe not the smartest way to play, but i enjoy it. I still think Tyranids can give people a run for their money.
Thanks for reading.

I have a question about the successive cover saves. Does screening Warriors w/ Gaunts, and MC's w/ Warriors provide a cover save to the enemy models my creatures shoot at?

Yes it does... Whenever you shoot through your own units the enemy gets a cover save, so indeed it works both ways. Since bugs have such poor saves (especially anything that isn't an MC), it's usually a lifesaver. Like I have said in many other posts, 5e 40k should be subtitled Warhammer 40,000: Cover saves for EVERYONE!!

Also remember that most people are gonna have a save vs. your shooting anyway. almost nothing in the list actually has any decent AP. And actually if your warriors are right up behind the gaunts then the enemy probably wouldn't get a cover save since though they cover half the model they are in no way impeding the line of sight of the warriors.

AI've been castling like that, and against most armies it doesn't matter, but then it's confusing when people say that it gives cover saves to their tanks your venom cannons are blasting at. As the game is right now, I would be very afraid of a mechvet list backed up by Executioner Russes and Vendettas/Devildogs.

QFT "template spam or go 100% hth. Thats nids of 5th edition." thehod

i have been observing template spam doing very well against MEQ with stealer shock to clean up but lackluster against green tide.

Deuce11 wrote:QFT "template spam or go 100% hth. Thats nids of 5th edition." thehod

i have been observing template spam doing very well against MEQ with stealer shock to clean up but lackluster against green tide.

Im not sure why proper pie spam should have a problem with the green tide. Those truckks should fall pray to any of the templates (bar warrior barbed strangler.. if the front AV is 11?), venom cannons can glance the open topped wagons & the sheer amount of blast should eradicate all those 30-strong boy squads.

Define template spam?

rokkit launchers and speedier than expected trukks were the main problems... i nor the nid player knew trukks were "fast!"


3 Zoans 5 shooty MCs (barbed stranglers and such). i dunno its not my list haha

Razerous wrote:

Deuce11 wrote:QFT "template spam or go 100% hth. Thats nids of 5th edition." thehod

i have been observing template spam doing very well against MEQ with stealer shock to clean up but lackluster against green tide.

Im not sure why proper pie spam should have a problem with the green tide. Those truckks should fall pray to any of the templates (bar warrior barbed strangler.. if the front AV is 11?), venom cannons can glance the open topped wagons & the sheer amount of blast should eradicate all those 30-strong boy squads.

Define template spam?

Also warriors with Deathspitters and a Barbed strangler. Strength 6 AP 5 Small Templates can do a little bit of damage.

A squad of 5 with 4 spitters and 1 strangler should get atleast one glance/pen against a standard transport most of the time. I think.