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So, here is a situation that I had come up from a PM from +++=][=+++Deleted by the Inquisition+++=][=+++ regarding Lords and Scarabs.

Lord + Scarab are in CC and lose.
What happens?

At first I thought "Pffft, this is easy" but then I noticed something. Scarabs do not have the Fearless USR, and instead use their own rules, which say "Fearless: Scarab swarms are assumed to pass all morale tests, even if failure is normally automatic, and cannot be pinned." Notice it says "Scarab Swarms", not "The Unit" or "Scarab Swarms and Attached IC's".

So, how would this work? Does the Lord Test Separately, or does he benefit from the Scarabs Special Version of Fearless, even though there is no Rules Basis for him to do so? Or do the no Retreat! rules provide for this situation?

Personally, I am not sure what to think. I THINK that it would just end up as normal, since he is attached to the unit, and IC's when with units do not make separate Morale tests, but the Scarabs rule is NOT the USR, and only applies to the Scarabs, not the Lord.

So, what's the Interwebs view on the RaW (Please, no "Just follow the USR" posts, I want a proper discussion about the rules)
Input Plox!

I'm going to say that the No Retreat! rules work well for this situation because the Scarabs convey a version of fearless that is pretty close to the same wording as no retreat!

Just quoting the Scarab Swarm wording in the second printing of the Necron Codex, in case it's asked or whatnot;

"Fearless: Scarab swarms are assumed to pass all Morale tests, even if failure is normally automatic, and cannon be pinned."

And, no retreat;

"NO RETREAT!
It's not uncommon for units to be immune to Morale checks for losing an assault, Or to automatically pass them for some reason (they may have the 'fearless' special rule, be subject to a vow or some other special rule). When such units lose a close combat. they are in danger of being dragged down by the victorious enemy despite their determination to hang on.

These units do not take Morale checks and wilt never fall back. Instead, these units suffer a number of wounds equal to the number their side has lost the combat by (allocated as normal).
All types of saving throws, except for cover saves, can be taken against these wounds.

For example. after all blows are struck. a fearless unit hGs lost the fight by a difference of 3. The fearless unit does not take a Morale test but it immediately suffers three wounds and will take three armour saves.

If none of the enemies involved in the combat against a fearless unit can actually hurt it, the unit does not suffer any wounds if its side is defeated in combat, and simply continues to fight."

Kreedos wrote:I'm going to say that the No Retreat! rules work well for this situation because the Scarabs convey a version of fearless that is pretty close to the same wording as no retreat!

But, it is not the same, much like how the Daemon Special Rule from Daemonhunters is not the same as the one from Chaos Daemons.

Gwar! wrote:

Kreedos wrote:I'm going to say that the No Retreat! rules work well for this situation because the Scarabs convey a version of fearless that is pretty close to the same wording as no retreat!

But, it is not the same, much like how the Daemon Special Rule from Daemonhunters is not the same as the one from Chaos Daemons.

But the example your using is codex to codex. The codex for whatever army you are playing only uses the rules from that codex, so if one was using the Daemonhunters codex, they would only use that rule set, unless otherwise noted in the faq (if one follows the faqs or another example such as;

In the WH codex under the HQ inqusitor section for allies "All units are taken exactly as they appear in Codex; Space Marines or Codex: Imperial Guard and may only use the options and upgrades listed there"

Or the fact that other chapters of Space Marines can't use the new space marine codex for their rule set, for example black templars drop pods come in seperately when fielding a full drop pod army instead of getting half in the first turn.

Or the fact that the WH storm troopers don't get the rules for the new hellguns in the IG codex (even though they are called hot shot lasguns).

I'm not stating any of this to insult your intelligence, I'm sure you know all this stuff, I'm just saying the example you used doesn't compare with the topic at hand due to the fact this is a rule book to codex issue. Or so I think.

But saying a rule LOOKs the same as another isn't a very RAW decision for this either, It's more of a RAI thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, I thought about it more and came up with two options that could fit well for RAW.

Either;

The necron lord takes a LD test plus any negative modifiers if the squad loses assault

Or;

The necron lord only takes a LD test against wounds he's taken plus any negitive modifiers, and any wounds the scarabs would take wounds separate from the lord, and they would be using their version of fearless.

Kreedos wrote:Ok, I thought about it more and came up with two options that could fit well for RAW.

Either;

The necron lord takes a LD test plus any negative modifiers if the squad loses assault

Or;

The necron lord only takes a LD test against wounds he's taken plus any negitive modifiers, and any wounds the scarabs would take wounds separate from the lord, and they would be using their version of fearless.

The problem with both of these is there are no rules for IC's taking Tests independent of their unit. There is a Paradox effect here. The Scrarabs don't take tests, but the lord still has to because the version of fearless is different. But the Lord Can't take the test because only one test can be made, that for the unit.

-Sigh-

I think it does work out as counting like normal Fearless, but we can't be sure (or My brain just fails to see it)

I'll offer option C: the necron player sensibly joins his Lord to a Warrior squad instead and avoids this question.

But otherwise... I'd have to go with what GW offered for Deldar in the 3rd edition FAQ concerning crazed drugheads with a dispenser Succubus. They may be fearless but their leader isn't and they follow his example. If the Lord and his scarabs lose CC they test as normal and flee if they have to.

I honestly think the entire unit would use the special fearless rule as per the scarabs in codex: necrons. The reasoning for this being that inspite of the lord not having that fearless rule, he is subject to the unit he joins, per the unit not being retinue.

Take for example movement in a unit when an independent character with a jump pack joins, if he joins a unit with jump packs,moves as normal, without jumpacks, must walk, SAP, must SAP, so when a lord joins a unit of scarabs it must abide by the unit it joins and if fails a combat face no retreat wounds.

Thats my ideology atleast...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean you could argue the IC overrides all other rules in the unit, but that would mean that something like a chaos sorcerer would force a PM unit to lose FnP because he doesnt have it, etc...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An IC can only grant new abilities, not remove any, unless it specifically says so like in codex: space marines with the new Combat Tactics

gameandwatch wrote:I honestly think the entire unit would use the special fearless rule as per the scarabs in codex: necrons. The reasoning for this being that inspite of the lord not having that fearless rule, he is subject to the unit he joins, per the unit not being retinue.

The Special rule does not say that happens. Only with USR that happens, no other Special rules.

but "Just follow the USR" I feel sums it up ... but to take beyond that the unit will automatic pass a Moral test and cannot be pinned because that's what it says. (I guess you could argue that if the lord wants he can take and fail the test .... but I see nothing that would stop the scarabs fearless rule auto passing them)

Now to the person that said why join a lord to scarabs? Easy they get stealth for being a swarm so that's +1 to the lords cover save (I imagine them swarming over him) ... Note the swarm its self also gets another +1 for the small target rule. Since they move as jet bikes, sticking a lord on a destroyer body with them, makes allot of sense.

Also this stealth rule kicks in for tomb spiders that make a scarab swarm. (yay it can improve its cover save)

Tri wrote:but "Just follow the USR" I feel sums it up ... but to take beyond that the unit will automatic pass a Moral test and cannot be pinned because that's what it says. (I guess you could argue that if the lord wants he can take and fail the test .... but I see nothing that would stop the scarabs fearless rule auto passing them)

Now to the person that said why join a lord to scarabs? Easy they get stealth for being a swarm so that's +1 to the lords cover save (I imagine them swarming over him) ... Note the swarm its self also gets another +1 for the small target rule. Since they move as jet bikes, sticking a lord on a destroyer body with them, makes allot of sense.

Also this stealth rule kicks in for tomb spiders that make a scarab swarm. (yay it can improve its cover save)

Does the Second printing change the Swarm Reference to look to the BRB, cause if it doesn't, you are mistaken Tri. They have their own Small target and Swarm Rules which only affect them, not the BRB USR ones that can affect attached IC's. Therefore, the lord does not benefit from it.

Scarab Swarms (p. 19)
Q. Are Scarab Swarms swarms, as described in
the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook?
A. Yes

ok its only FAQ but thats good enough for me

Tri wrote:Scarab Swarms (p. 19)
Q. Are Scarab Swarms swarms, as described in
the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook?
A. Yes

ok its only FAQ but thats good enough for me

Not for me though

But fine, if you use that, then yes, the Lord gets a +1 to his cover save, and so has a Lovely 2+ Cover Save when Turboboosting. It also means the Scarabs could potentially have a 1+ (were it not forbidden)

Hmmm....this is a conundrum.

I don't think anyone is debating the Scarabs are considered swarms. The issue is does the Lord get treated as part of the collective unit when checking for morale.

If the Scarabs followed the USR Fearless rule, the simple answer is YES, however, the codex defines fearless for itself and the FAQ doesn't override said definition.

As a result, there is some debate as to what to do with the Lord that has joined a unit of Scarabs that have lost combat. Does the Lord get treated as part of the Scarab unit (thus fall under the No Retreat! rule) or something else?

Well, let me ask this question.

Black Templars use their own version of perfered enemy instead of using the codex's version, is this correct?



Anyway, I ended up playing the Destroyer Lord with the Scarabs and they made for a fantastic assault unit, we played it in house by using the USR for fearless instead of the one listed in the codex.

This seems like the easiest and most clear way to play it, due to the fact that the fearless USR even mentions that IC's gain fearless when joining a unit with fearless.

So, pretty much, I think the easiest way to do this, is use the scarabs version of fearless, and then add the extra rules from the 5th codex.

Just throwing this out there:
While the Scarabs do not confer their special rule to the Lord, would the combination of moving the "speed" of the slowest model and not being able to leave a unit locked in combat mean that the Lord sticks with the Scarabs, and thus would remain in combat per the Scarabs special rule?

It's far fetched, but it's the only thing I can think of right now.

I believe this is covered in the rules regarding IC's, and special abilities.
Unless specifically permitted by the unit, an IC does not confer there abilities to the unit they join, and neither does the unit pass there abilities to the IC joining them. Also, unless specificly allowed, many abilities are stripped from the unit if the entire unit dosen't have the ability, such as infiltrate.
Example is Gazkull does not get infiltrate if it joins with kommandos. If Gazkull joins the kommandos, they can not infiltrate.
I think that a mixed unit of fearless and non fearless units would be stripped of their fearless ability.

jayjester wrote:I believe this is covered in the rules regarding IC's, and special abilities.
Unless specifically permitted by the unit, an IC does not confer there abilities to the unit they join, and neither does the unit pass there abilities to the IC joining them. Also, unless specificly allowed, many abilities are stripped from the unit if the entire unit dosen't have the ability, such as infiltrate.
Example is Gazkull does not get infiltrate if it joins with kommandos. If Gazkull joins the kommandos, they can not infiltrate.
I think that a mixed unit of fearless and non fearless units would be stripped of their fearless ability.

Yeah, which means the Lord does not become "Fearless", because the Scarabs fearless is not the USR

If you REALLY can't come up with an answer with your opponent then do it the good old fashion way, roll a dice.

The scarabs special rule is not a USR, so we must disregard all the rules that cover those.

The scarabs are subject to no retreat if they are beaten in combat because they automatically pass all morale and pinning tests.

Independant characters dont make morale or pinning tests separate to their unit.

The scarabs dont lose their special rule if joined by a lord because it is not a USR (fearless isnt lost by units or ICs when joining/joined by something without it anyway).

No retreat refers to 'units', not models. The lord is part of the same unit as the scarabs.

The lord cannot make tests independatly of the unit. The unit automatically passes morale/pinning. The unit is subject to no retreat and suffers a number of wounds equal to the number they lost by, which can be allocated to any model in the unit as per normal rules.

Regwon wrote:The scarabs special rule is not a USR, so we must disregard all the rules that cover those.

The scarabs are subject to no retreat if they are beaten in combat because they automatically pass all morale and pinning tests.

Independant characters dont make morale or pinning tests separate to their unit.

The scarabs dont lose their special rule if joined by a lord because it is not a USR (fearless isnt lost by units or ICs when joining/joined by something without it anyway).

No retreat refers to 'units', not models. The lord is part of the same unit as the scarabs.

The lord cannot make tests independatly of the unit. The unit automatically passes morale/pinning. The unit is subject to no retreat and suffers a number of wounds equal to the number they lost by, which can be allocated to any model in the unit as per normal rules.

This is what I thought Initially as well, just was not sure how it would interact as I was utterly wasted at the time of posting

I think Regwon summed it up nicely....