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Ok, i know the rule for starting/ending a movement in difficult terrain. My question is, how is it determined that your IN the terrain. If i place the model so the base is just outside the difficult terrain but the model itself is partially over the terrain, do i make a dangerous terrain test?

No, you only make the test if the base is in Difficult.

I apologise in advance for the Multitude of Trolls who will now swarm the thread with "Yes" Answers just because I said No. As you can see, I am right a lot and people get jealous of that.

I am not disagreeing just because Gwar says just the base, but what would lead you to that decision. I think the rule simply states if the model starts or ends its move in difficult terrain. If it does not state base, I would have to go with any part of the hull.

I am not 100% sure though as I do not have my book with me at the moment.

loomisc wrote:I am not disagreeing just because Gwar says just the base, but what would lead you to that decision. I think the rule simply states if the model starts or ends its move in difficult terrain. If it does not state base, I would have to go with any part of the hull.

I am not 100% sure though as I do not have my book with me at the moment.

The thing is, Skimmers do not start in Terrain, they start over it. The only part that can be considered "in" any kind of terrain is the base.

I say No because if you think about what a skimmer is, it would be very easy for them to avoid a small piece of difficult terrain if the vehicle is mostly out of it. It is, after all, floating above the ground, not jumping around. The base is ususally a good indicator of where the majority of the skimmer is over, so for terrain i'd definitely use the base as a comparison.

Humm actually I see this as being an interesting point of a little uncertainty. Take other non-skimmer vehicles for example, you would most certainly use the hull to determine if it was in DT. Skimmers bases are effectively ignore save for assaults, and measurements are made from the hull. I don't actually see any RAW reason to use the base of the skimmer rather than the hull to see if it is in DT.

Then again, i think RAI is clearly in support of the base being the part that decides if its in DT since the hull of a skimmer would seldom ever end up in that situation.

We use the hull. The base is an abstraction we simply don't agree with.

This is actually a fairly good question.

The base is "in" the difficult terrain. The hull is not "in" it but may be over it. However, the skimmer section is quite explicit in what the base may be used for.

In a rules-lawyer rich enviroment then base is the safer interpretation.


Personally, I use the hull but ignore certain types of terrain (e.g. sticking the nose of a falcon into the base of a ruined building is dangerous (all kinds of stuff could be sticking out) but marsh isn't going to affect it all).

Do you roll the dangerous test for the skimmer at the beginning of its move or when it lands if it starts in difficult?

RobPro wrote:Do you roll the dangerous test for the skimmer at the beginning of its move or when it lands if it starts in difficult?

If it begins and/or ends in difficult, you take a single dangerous terrain test.
So if it begins, you roll before moving, if it ends, you roll after moving. If it does both, you will roll before moving.

Yes because...


BRB pg 71, left column, 2nd para, last sentence:

As normal for vehicles, distances are measured to and from the skimmers hull, with the exception of the vehicle's weapons, access points and fire points, which all work as normal. The skimmer's base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting a skimmer...

GWAR! wrote: As you can see, I am right a lot and people get jealous of that.

It's your attitude (and ridiculous sig), not jealousy at all.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:Yes because...


BRB pg 71, left column, 2nd para, last sentence:

As normal for vehicles, distances are measured to and from the skimmers hull, with the exception of the vehicle's weapons, access points and fire points, which all work as normal. The skimmer's base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting a skimmer...

Except that the hull is 1" (or however tall the stand is) above the terrain feature. Does that count as in the terrain or over it?

Common sense would say that it counts. Rules lawyers could make arguments either way.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Nurgleboy77 wrote:Yes because...


BRB pg 71, left column, 2nd para, last sentence:

As normal for vehicles, distances are measured to and from the skimmers hull, with the exception of the vehicle's weapons, access points and fire points, which all work as normal. The skimmer's base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting a skimmer...

Except that the hull is 1" (or however tall the stand is) above the terrain feature. Does that count as in the terrain or over it?

Common sense would say that it counts. Rules lawyers could make arguments either way.

Common sense says it it over the terrain, so it wouldn't trigger a DT test

On it's base, it will ALWAYS be "over" terrain. "inside" terrain means within its boundaries. It even points out that you may be "over" impassible terrain, but still take the test.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:On it's base, it will ALWAYS be "over" terrain. "inside" terrain means within its boundaries. It even points out that you may be "over" impassible terrain, but still take the test.

That applies only to Impassible terrain. The base is the only thing that can be considered "in" terrain at all. It's a murky situation, and you need to clarify it pre game, because GW just hates writing usable rules it seems.

Didn't we have this debate in the skimmer / flier over the table edge thread?

Gwar! wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

Nurgleboy77 wrote:Yes because...


BRB pg 71, left column, 2nd para, last sentence:

As normal for vehicles, distances are measured to and from the skimmers hull, with the exception of the vehicle's weapons, access points and fire points, which all work as normal. The skimmer's base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting a skimmer...

Except that the hull is 1" (or however tall the stand is) above the terrain feature. Does that count as in the terrain or over it?

Common sense would say that it counts. Rules lawyers could make arguments either way.

Common sense says it is over the terrain, so it wouldn't trigger a DT test

As I said in my first post, it would vary depending on what the difficult terrain is. A ruined building has all sorts of debris sticking out that could damage a skimmer so being 1" over it would justify a test. Marsh or little rocks aren't going to affect it all.

IMHO it should be played to the hull of the vehicle because:

1. The rulebook says all distances are measured from the hull of the vehicle except embarkation points et. al.

2. If you don't then the skimmer may never interact with terrain.

3. The rulebook says to ignore the flying base when measuring skimmer distances.

4. The rulebook states that a skimmer must be set down at the end of it's turn and at that point takes dangerous tests.

5. If you don't it seems possible to abuse the rule and sportsmanlike conduct suggests you use the rules interpretation that least benefits you.

We all know a certain someone is using this opportunity to beat a drum about the GW ruleset not being tight (and it's not) but hopefully we can help the OP by giving them some practical guidance and not nonsensical mental masturbation.

Why should it be ensured that skimmers interact with terrain? The whole idea of a skimmer is to be able to go places normal vehicles can't, i.e. difficult terrain. Sure there should be a possibility something can go wrong, but for skimmers it shouldn't be common by any means. After all, does it make a lick of sense for a valkyrie to break after flying over a swamp?

spartanghost wrote:Why should it be ensured that skimmers interact with terrain? The whole idea of a skimmer is to be able to go places normal vehicles can't, i.e. difficult terrain. Sure there should be a possibility something can go wrong, but for skimmers it shouldn't be common by any means. After all, does it make a lick of sense for a valkyrie to break after flying over a swamp?

well...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bermuda_Triangle#Methane_hydrates

That being said, when you are determining when a skimmer's base is in difficult terrain or not... are you really measuring a distance? I wouldn't need a tape measure to tell if the base was in the terrain... infact the base might even be raised a bit if it were area terrain.

spartanghost wrote:Why should it be ensured that skimmers interact with terrain? The whole idea of a skimmer is to be able to go places normal vehicles can't, i.e. difficult terrain. Sure there should be a possibility something can go wrong, but for skimmers it shouldn't be common by any means. After all, does it make a lick of sense for a valkyrie to break after flying over a swamp?

Rules wise, it's pretty clear that the skimmer MUST land at the end of it's movement. If you can clear the swamp great, but if not it should have some potential for vehicle interaction per the rules.

Decide on it before match/tourny. I'd say base, please.

Rules wise, it's pretty clear that the skimmer MUST land at the end of it's movement. If you can clear the swamp great, but if not it should have some potential for vehicle interaction per the rules.

This is false. You must place the skimmer's base on the table and not hold it suspended in mid air, but it does not "land"

p.71 BGB wrote:...as normally skimmers cannot land during battle conditions.

Well if tis base then you'd only take DTs if its the base is in Difficult terrain. If its hull then you'd never take DT tests ever, as the hull is always an inch or two oft heground. obviously not in DT.

I dunno, a ruined building or a patch of trees might invoke such a test. Either way, the rules seem to indicate you judge by the hull, not the base. I've always played it the other way, but now I'm going to bring this up to my gaming group.

The book says "A model is considered to occupy the area of its base" in the models and units section (pg. 3 AOBR Book). Since there is no measurement involved in determining whether or not a model is in DT this rule dictates that it is only the base that needs to be within DT when determining to take a test.

That's what I think anyway.

Same goes for a portion of the model hanging over the table edge.

The only problem you run into is when a skimmer is immobilized when hanging over other units unless you intentionally glue the base on to avoid this.

That rule is not applicable to skimmers. It is found under the "measuring distances" section of p.3. which provides general rules for models and units.

p.71 has more specific rules governing skimmers, including a "measuring distances" section. Therein, "The skimmer's base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting a skimmer."

So normally the base would count for measuring distance on any given model, but specifically skimmers are an exception to this as only assaults use the base for measuring. Everything else is measured to the hull.

When was the last time you needed to get out your tape measure in order to figure out whether or not a model was in difficult terrain? The rule for skimmers might say to ignore the base for purposes of measuring but it does not tell you to ignore the base when determining its footprint.

The section you quoted is about measuring distances as well.

All other models are on the ground, you know, where the terrain is. So I guess this issue would only come up for skimmers, since they are the only ones not on the ground.

"When was the last time...blah blah blah" is irrelevent because of the unique positioning of the skimmers.

I'd say base, but a lot of players have an issue with that, because I'm better than them. So I give them hull. It'd be nice to get an FAQ to prove I'm right.