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Hoping for some advice on this. At my local GW store, they only have 1k points fights some nights, and I would like to participate. I have solid lists (I think) for higher points values, but am having difficulty figuring out a proper HQ (and support group for him) at so few points.

Note: I guess it is obvious that this list will include Vulkan at higher levels...

Master of the Forge w/ Conversion Beamer 120

10x Tactical 240
Flamer, MM, PF, Combi-melta
Rhino

10x Tactical 240
Flamer, MM, PF, Combi-melta
Rhino

2x Landspeeder (2 fast slots) HF/MM 140

2x Vindicator 230

Total: 970 with a plan to fill out points with Vindicator upgrades.

Any other ideas out there?

Drop vindis theay aint that good drop them and take 3 dakka preds instead.

Personally, I find dakka preds unimpressive.

I run auto cannon las cannon pred and it has never let me down,, all you have to do is destroy the vindis weapon and it is as good as dead, not to mention scattering plus short range make my preds chew up vindis before they are in range to shoot. When I see my opponent field 2 vindis I know I will out shoot him I have never been impressed on the the recieving end of a vindi.

Fist of Dorn wrote:I run auto cannon las cannon pred and it has never let me down,, all you have to do is destroy the vindis weapon and it is as good as dead, not to mention scattering plus short range make my preds chew up vindis before they are in range to shoot. When I see my opponent field 2 vindis I know I will out shoot him I have never been impressed on the the recieving end of a vindi.

Well no crap if you destroy the weapons it becomes less effective.

The pred you run is ok but it's not going to do that much. His Landspeeders will show you effective anti-tank in one turn.

Your list is fairly solid. I might run a librarian instead of a MotF at this point and give him smite and nullzone or some good CC powers.

I would run Meltagun / RL at this point level to get off mobile anti-tank shots. I think a combi-flamer then would help you out. (for your tac marines)

Dakka preds are very nice but vindis have a fear to them. Fist is crazy if he think the vindis ST10 AP2 is unimpressive, it can chew up squads in a turn of shooting. Imagine your precious marines being meltad out of their x-ports. Then hit when a demolisher cannon. Wow that does hurt.

No not crazy, accual game experience, we have a couple big gaming clubs where we play and alot of competitive players, we run a couple gaming nights a week as well as local tournaments and a few guys bring vindicators and every time I face them they do very little.

EzeKK wrote: Well no crap if you destroy the weapons it becomes less effective.

If a vindicator loses its weapon it does not become less effective it becomes virtually useless, if a pred loses a weapon it becomes less effective but still usefull as it has 2 more weapons to fire. I have found that 2 las cannon shots againts armor 13 or less is very effective and the auto cannon with the las will wipe out any light armored vehicle, again vindicators get out ranged and outclassed bye predators easily.

EzeKK wrote:Dakka preds are very nice but vindis have a fear to them. Fist is crazy if he think the vindis ST10 AP2 is unimpressive, it can chew up squads in a turn of shooting. Imagine your precious marines being meltad out of their x-ports. Then hit when a demolisher cannon. Wow that does hurt.

immagine my drop pod landing and melta gunning that vindicator on the first turn and my troops in the x-ports move up safley. Wow that didn't hurt all that much.

Fist of Dorn wrote:I run auto cannon las cannon pred and it has never let me down,, all you have to do is destroy the vindis weapon and it is as good as dead, not to mention scattering plus short range make my preds chew up vindis before they are in range to shoot. When I see my opponent field 2 vindis I know I will out shoot him I have never been impressed on the the recieving end of a vindi.

I never discount an weaponless vehicle. I had a vindi with no main gun and I killed two opposing vindi's and a dread by ramming the crap outta them. "Who needs a demolisher cannon now !!!"

Wow wow wow, anyone saying vindicators are not good is quite frankly in a dream world. Vindicators are quite probably the best heavy support slot in the Space marine Codex, its s10 ap2 on bs4, in a mech list its just fantastic.

heck the 3 competitive space marine players I know well all run 2-3 vindicators in their list.

It'll blow anything of the board if it gets in range, and it will in a space mech list, which is what your running.

And of course if it gets its weapon destroyed it becomes nearly worthless, but thats true of alot of vehicles, such as the Fire Prism.

Vindicators have an extremely powerful weapon, but are very vulnerable to flank shots, especially as they have to move forward. AV11 sides really don't stand up to serious anti-tank firepower.

Fist of Dorn wrote:

immagine my drop pod landing and melta gunning that vindicator on the first turn and my troops in the x-ports move up safley. Wow that didn't hurt all that much.

Wow you just lost the argument. if any one ever brings up said I have sternys in a coke can, they lose said argument. And honestly if I saw you had a drop pod id just throw them in reserves. If your dumb enough to drop it in my deployment zone, one of my 2 vindis will come out on turn 2 to blow the crap out of your precious melta gunning vets.

At anyrate Ive fielded both vindis and preds before and I find that vindis have a certain magnetic attraction to any and all incoming fire. As for preds eh they serve there purpose be it anti tank or anti infantry.

In all honesty I prefer having the vindis on the field. My opponent will almost always ignore the speeding rhinos in favor of shooting at the vindis and this gives you a turn or two of movement you otherwise would not get.

At anyrate I do agree with ezekk on the point of taking something else other then the teck marine. A librarian honestly would be your best bet. He has alot of usefull powers that could help your army in more then one way.

Well, wouldn't you want a unit and a vehicle for the librarian? I put the motf because he is the only hq you don't want mounted.

Fist of Dorn wrote:No not crazy, accual game experience, we have a couple big gaming clubs where we play and alot of competitive players, we run a couple gaming nights a week as well as local tournaments and a few guys bring vindicators and every time I face them they do very little.

EzeKK wrote: Well no crap if you destroy the weapons it becomes less effective.

If a vindicator loses its weapon it does not become less effective it becomes virtually useless, if a pred loses a weapon it becomes less effective but still usefull as it has 2 more weapons to fire. I have found that 2 las cannon shots againts armor 13 or less is very effective and the auto cannon with the las will wipe out any light armored vehicle, again vindicators get out ranged and outclassed bye predators easily.

EzeKK wrote:Dakka preds are very nice but vindis have a fear to them. Fist is crazy if he think the vindis ST10 AP2 is unimpressive, it can chew up squads in a turn of shooting. Imagine your precious marines being meltad out of their x-ports. Then hit when a demolisher cannon. Wow that does hurt.

immagine my drop pod landing and melta gunning that vindicator on the first turn and my troops in the x-ports move up safley. Wow that didn't hurt all that much.

Your accual (c wht i did ther hur hur) experience sounds like you aren't facing that many metagamers.

If you drop within 6" then maybe. Ideal conditions mean crap and there is two vindis. Imagine me killing that squad and the drop pod for 2 KP's while you got one MAYBE. There is a reason no one agrees with you. You also wasted a squad costing at least 165 points on my 115 point vehicle. Also, that is only with one combi-melta, and you're an idiot if you only take one. So a unit with 5 combi-meltas in a drop pod would be 185 points wasted on my 115 point vehicle and thats 2KP for me almost 100% of the time while you might gain one. Might. My demo cannon and tac marines says I get your two.

Your a noob if you think a moving vehicle is still useless. Ever heard of a bunker? Contesting objectives?

Lascannon preds aren't bad, but bashing vindis makes you look like you have no idea what you are talking about.

@ OP

A good suggestion would be to drop the Landspeeders and Vindicators for a Godhammer LR and a assault squad with a PF and flamer and a chappy or captain or libby or any CC HQ and have a mobile assault unit. Tac marine also work here to have an impenetrable bunker of scoring awesomeness.

If you were to take the tac marines:

250 for godhammer LR

115 for 5x Tac Marines with a PF sergeant or 125 points for a 5 man assault squad w/ power fist or 110 for a 5 man assault squad with a flamer.

115 for a chaplain with a power fist or 100 for a libby.

If you run a solo MoF I reccomend sticking him on a bike for relentless. You have a good point as to where to put the HQ which is why a bike MotF works but the problem with him is that he is expensive.

If you don't want a LR then maybe giving the libby GoI and terminator armor for a mobile hard hitter? Maybe even dropping the Landspeeders for a small razorback squad or assault marine squad in a rhino could get him a ride.

I do like Landspeeders though so maybe just let him hoof it, or give him a jumppack and let him go behind your rhinos / vindis.

Your a noob if you think a moving vehicle is still useless. Ever heard of a bunker? Contesting objectives?

wouldnt 3 rhinos for 105 points be more effective at performing this job? not to mention carrying troops, thats fine if you dont agree with me I was just posting my opinion about vindicators and how I think they are just about a complete waste of points when you compare them to a predator, thats my opinion you dont have to have a heart attack on your keyboard over it, but its sounds like you are a opinionated prick who likes to bash people on the internet, over there opinion that is not the same as your's I posted reasons why I like the pred in any list over the vindi, more weapons, longer range.

Wow you just lost the argument. if any one ever brings up said I have sternys in a coke can, they lose said argument. And honestly if I saw you had a drop pod id just throw them in reserves. If your dumb enough to drop it in my deployment zone, one of my 2 vindis will come out on turn 2 to blow the crap out of your precious melta gunning vets

Not sure where your going with this, but if sternguard are spread out and you deviate you cannot kill them all but I guess you know how games turn out before they are played, like that your vindis will come out on turn 2, we can post counters all day at what we have to counter this or that but that is not realistic because of all of the variables in a game, not sure where your going with this other than to put up a half ass lame argument over something fairly tirvial as we dont know who goes first or how the game plays out ect ect. My opinion stands, from experience playing against vindis with my preds and my preds always come out on top, some may have different experiences though and have has success with vindi's I have not seen them used effectivly at all in our club, but most people here go heavy on anti tank and putting a vindi within 48 inches of the enemy with a 24 inch range is asking for trouble around here. Now if sternguard popping out of a drop pod to melta a tank is a waste, then what is not a waste? They are one of the few units that have the capabilty to effectivley blow up any tank in the game on the first turn. The initial argument was predators are better to bring than vindis so bring what you like but I think the the weaknesses of the vindicator out wiegh the good, it helps to look beyond strength 10 pie plate and look at all the variables and realise it is a 24 inch gun that scatters and one weapon destroyed makes it unoperable for its intended use, turning it into a objective contester. Any tank can contest a objective its not like a vindicator comes with some speacial objective contesting abilty or something, not a real strong argument vs any other tank lol.

Fist of Dorn wrote:

Your a noob if you think a moving vehicle is still useless. Ever heard of a bunker? Contesting objectives?

wouldnt 3 rhinos for 105 points be more effective at performing this job? not to mention carrying troops, thats fine if you dont agree with me I was just posting my opinion about vindicators and how I think they are just about a complete waste of points when you compare them to a predator, thats my opinion you dont have to have a heart attack on your keyboard over it, but its sounds like you are a opinionated prick who likes to bash people on the internet, over there opinion that is not the same as your's I posted reasons why I like the pred in any list over the vindi, more weapons, longer range.

Wow you just lost the argument. if any one ever brings up said I have sternys in a coke can, they lose said argument. And honestly if I saw you had a drop pod id just throw them in reserves. If your dumb enough to drop it in my deployment zone, one of my 2 vindis will come out on turn 2 to blow the crap out of your precious melta gunning vets

Not sure where your going with this, but if sternguard are spread out and you deviate you cannot kill them all but I guess you know how games turn out before they are played, like that your vindis will come out on turn 2, we can post counters all day at what we have to counter this or that but that is not realistic because of all of the variables in a game, not sure where your going with this other than to put up a half ass lame argument over something fairly tirvial as we dont know who goes first or how the game plays out ect ect. My opinion stands, from experience playing against vindis with my preds and my preds always come out on top, some may have different experiences though and have has success with vindi's I have not seen them used effectivly at all in our club, but most people here go heavy on anti tank and putting a vindi within 48 inches of the enemy with a 24 inch range is asking for trouble around here. Now if sternguard popping out of a drop pod to melta a tank is a waste, then what is not a waste? They are one of the few units that have the capabilty to effectivley blow up any tank in the game on the first turn. The initial argument was predators are better to bring than vindis so bring what you like but I think the the weaknesses of the vindicator out wiegh the good, it helps to look beyond strength 10 pie plate and look at all the variables and realise it is a 24 inch gun that scatters and one weapon destroyed makes it unoperable for its intended use, turning it into a objective contester. Any tank can contest a objective its not like a vindicator comes with some speacial objective contesting abilty or something, not a real strong argument vs any other tank lol.

Wall of text hit's you for over 9000. You die. Not going to read it. Points have been made. If he like vindis he will take them.

Alright, well thank you all for the responses. I enjoyed the back and forth, maybe I can explain some of my reasoning:

First off, my first upgrade to 1500+ would be to drop MoTF and put in Vulkan, 5 TH/SS Terminators and a LRR with Meltagun. Even later I would add another with either six terminators, or one more character (Librarian?). Also, I would add to Landspeeders and Tac Squads.

At a certain point I am locking myself in to purchases, and if I already know that I will eventually be taking a heavy choice with a Land Raider, then I have to pick two solid other choices. I suppose 2x Predator and one more Landspeeder would accomplish the same though...

If what you say is true about everyone focusing vindicators, they they will have paid for their 230+ points by:

1) Making people ignore real threats (Landspeeders, Land Raiders).

2) Allowing my minimalist amount of Troops to be relatively ignored for a turn or possibly two.

If the only argument against them is that they are too strong and get focused immediately and completely, you have provided (in my mind) the best reason for me to bring them.

I am very tempted to paint up the Vindicators with big red targets on the sides of each of them...

Awsome, good luck. and post some results after a few games to let us know how your army did.

Fearspect wrote:Alright, well thank you all for the responses. I enjoyed the back and forth, maybe I can explain some of my reasoning:

First off, my first upgrade to 1500+ would be to drop MoTF and put in Vulkan, 5 TH/SS Terminators and a LRR with Meltagun. Even later I would add another with either six terminators, or one more character (Librarian?). Also, I would add to Landspeeders and Tac Squads.

At a certain point I am locking myself in to purchases, and if I already know that I will eventually be taking a heavy choice with a Land Raider, then I have to pick two solid other choices. I suppose 2x Predator and one more Landspeeder would accomplish the same though...

If what you say is true about everyone focusing vindicators, they they will have paid for their 230+ points by:

1) Making people ignore real threats (Landspeeders, Land Raiders).

2) Allowing my minimalist amount of Troops to be relatively ignored for a turn or possibly two.

If the only argument against them is that they are too strong and get focused immediately and completely, you have provided (in my mind) the best reason for me to bring them.

I am very tempted to paint up the Vindicators with big red targets on the sides of each of them...

If you drop the PF and combi-meltas you could take Vulcan. Good luck!

Fist of Dorn wrote:Awsome, good luck. and post some results after a few games to let us know how your army did.

Unfortunately its going to take some months to actually assemble and paint them. I hope my response does not make it seem like I am saying "I have already decided, I just want a pat on the back".

Ezekk: About Vulkan at this point value, I considered it, but am not getting a warm, fuzzy feeling about leaving independant characters without a delivery system, as he belongs in close combat.

HQ
Librarian 100
Troops
2x 5man Tactical Squad PF Combi Flamer Razorback TLLC 400
1x 5man Tactical Squad PF Razorback TLHB 155
HS
3x Vindicator 345

Try this list out
you wont make friends

Fist of Dorn wrote:

Your a noob if you think a moving vehicle is still useless. Ever heard of a bunker? Contesting objectives?

wouldnt 3 rhinos for 105 points be more effective at performing this job? not to mention carrying troops, thats fine if you dont agree with me I was just posting my opinion about vindicators and how I think they are just about a complete waste of points when you compare them to a predator, thats my opinion you dont have to have a heart attack on your keyboard over it, but its sounds like you are a opinionated prick who likes to bash people on the internet, over there opinion that is not the same as your's I posted reasons why I like the pred in any list over the vindi, more weapons, longer range.

Wow you just lost the argument. if any one ever brings up said I have sternys in a coke can, they lose said argument. And honestly if I saw you had a drop pod id just throw them in reserves. If your dumb enough to drop it in my deployment zone, one of my 2 vindis will come out on turn 2 to blow the crap out of your precious melta gunning vets

Not sure where your going with this, but if sternguard are spread out and you deviate you cannot kill them all but I guess you know how games turn out before they are played, like that your vindis will come out on turn 2, we can post counters all day at what we have to counter this or that but that is not realistic because of all of the variables in a game, not sure where your going with this other than to put up a half ass lame argument over something fairly tirvial as we dont know who goes first or how the game plays out ect ect. My opinion stands, from experience playing against vindis with my preds and my preds always come out on top, some may have different experiences though and have has success with vindi's I have not seen them used effectivly at all in our club, but most people here go heavy on anti tank and putting a vindi within 48 inches of the enemy with a 24 inch range is asking for trouble around here. Now if sternguard popping out of a drop pod to melta a tank is a waste, then what is not a waste? They are one of the few units that have the capabilty to effectivley blow up any tank in the game on the first turn. The initial argument was predators are better to bring than vindis so bring what you like but I think the the weaknesses of the vindicator out wiegh the good, it helps to look beyond strength 10 pie plate and look at all the variables and realise it is a 24 inch gun that scatters and one weapon destroyed makes it unoperable for its intended use, turning it into a objective contester. Any tank can contest a objective its not like a vindicator comes with some speacial objective contesting abilty or something, not a real strong argument vs any other tank lol.

Continuing this because I have time to waste before I finish making dinner. The drop pod sterns are admitidly the best unit to kill tanks with if you can get them to work right or if your oponent lets you use them as you see fit. I have played with them and Ive found that id much rather have them on the ground in a razorback or rhino then drop them. To many people have found out the use of making a barrier around your tanks (you can easily do this with even a tactical squad) To stop them from just dropping down and blowing up what ever happens to be on tracks. And thats if your lucky and they havent taken demon allies. If they have chances are youv lost that unit before its even done anything.

Also I don't know who your playing with but it is very very hard to get a vindi to scatter way off target. You will almost always kill 3 or 4 models with it and considering its 30 points a vet. ive made my points back quiet easily. In almost a hundred games ive had it scatter maybe 4 times where its actually hit nothing. Pretty good odds if you ask me.

Yes the original argument was that preds are better then vindis. I think not. Its my own opinion yes so tough.

And fyi you were the one who originally started the whole I know how the games going to work out before its even played with your ill just drop my vets near your vindi and its just a waste of point now. I just stated you can easily avoid this very common tactic with a little thought.

Also on the above wouldn't 3 rhinos be better at it for 105 points crack. not when you include the fact that on average your wasting another 600+ points for the space marines to go in them cost.

combo wrote:Wow wow wow, anyone saying vindicators are not good is quite frankly in a dream world. Vindicators are quite probably the best heavy support slot in the Space marine Codex, its s10 ap2 on bs4, in a mech list its just fantastic.

heck the 3 competitive space marine players I know well all run 2-3 vindicators in their list.

It'll blow anything of the board if it gets in range, and it will in a space mech list, which is what your running.

And of course if it gets its weapon destroyed it becomes nearly worthless, but thats true of alot of vehicles, such as the Fire Prism.

What you don't understand is that with it's AV and short range, anything more than 24" will destroy it. The only good time to use it is when you have DOW deployment which is 1/3 of the time. So what if it's S 10 AP 2? Lascannon is S 9 AP 2 and CAN'T SCATTER. Also want to note that even orks could pop all 3 in 1 turn with loota's.

i think people are still frustrated that the preds they all bought last edition are kinda wiffle bat now and that vindies are the shiz point blank

THE ONLY TIME in wich i wish i had a pred was triple lascannon preds for a big bug list and honestly i dont think it would had made that much diffrence

Also this is a 1000 point list! Tanks for troops Troops for tanks thats how it should be!

I like both preds and vindicators, but I'd feel more comfy playing with a predator because I'm afraid of the vindicator losing its only weapon, thankfully that's only one result on the damage table but it's still a possibility, also I think the vindicator has a very short LOS with its cannon, so if it's immobilized your opponent may be able to quite easily scurry out of it, which is another thing I'd be worried about. They're both great though in my opinion despite the inherent risks of only having one weapons

To be quiet honest id never upgrade a pred to have lascannons if I had to. Considering how cheap you can have it with the h bolter sponsons Id much rather not soak 70 more points into something that is way better at anti infantry.

I personally like the predator with lascannon sponsons most, it's a little cheaper than a vindicator too