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Made in us
Privateer





The paint dungeon, Arizona

So, I like the idea of the Hellhound and its uber variants.

But I dont like using a full sized APC body to do what a scout car/light tank should be doing. And lets face it- chimera hulls are going at a premium these days!

So, while diggin through one of my bitz boxes for squiggoth gubbins, I found and old land speeder I was hacking up to make a buggy out of. And I realised it would be more than large enough for 2 or 3 guardsmen, a powerplant section, a heavy bolter, and a turret. So, with some wheels, and some armorplates to get it looking worthy of 12 AV I think I have a sweet little idea for Hellhound armored car variant.

Now- my questions- the smaller model will obviously have alot of people crying 'cheese' with claims of trying to avoid TLOS issues. How many of you guys would be annoyed with a smaller model across the table- if it was done not as cheese, but an obvious way of making a unique model/vehicle?

Im makin it regardless, jsut curious about the reactions it might cause
   
Made in us
The Hammer of Witches





A new day, a new time zone.

Mistress of minis wrote:Now- my questions- the smaller model will obviously have alot of people crying 'cheese' with claims of trying to avoid TLOS issues.

I question why you think this would be a problem anywhere other than on the internet?

"-Nonsense, the Inquisitor and his retinue are our hounoured guests, of course we should invite them to celebrate Four-armed Emperor-day with us..."
Thought for the Day - Never use the powerfist hand to wipe. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I'm not as fluent with the rules as some other members, but I hear every now and then that modeling for game benefit is legal anyway, as long as it's. . .60%(?) Original GW. (Even if that isn't your intent)

As far as sportsmanship, I really wouldn't have a problem with it, especially as it makes more sense fluffwise

Gwar: I'm going to quit while I can.

Meh, close enough  
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Go for it. If you're concerned have a simple plastacard base ready equal to the chimera footprint and there shouldn't be an issue. Frankly outside of a tournament if someone had an issue I would question playing them in the first place.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Privateer





The paint dungeon, Arizona

Its well over 60% GW bitz since its based on a SM landspeeder. The rest is plasticard, and some larger rear wheels. Im just not lookin forward to makin 2 or 3 of these things lol
   
Made in us
The Hammer of Witches





A new day, a new time zone.

apwill4765 wrote:I'm not as fluent with the rules as some other members, but I hear every now and then that modeling for game benefit is legal anyway, as long as it's. . .60%(?) Original GW.

There is no such rule.

"-Nonsense, the Inquisitor and his retinue are our hounoured guests, of course we should invite them to celebrate Four-armed Emperor-day with us..."
Thought for the Day - Never use the powerfist hand to wipe. 
   
Made in us
Privateer





The paint dungeon, Arizona

There used to be aq rule for the % of original GW material in a model for GT's and such. Now I believe its just up to the judges.

I know a very well done Ork biker Ive seen was disqual'd from the painting portion for having non-GW tracks on the back half.

Not a worry for me since Im probly not gonna be makin any GT or higher sort of games for a while
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Mistress of minis wrote:So, I like the idea of the Hellhound and its uber variants.

But I dont like using a full sized APC body to do what a scout car/light tank should be doing. And lets face it- chimera hulls are going at a premium these days!

How many of you guys would be annoyed with a smaller model across the table- if it was done not as cheese, but an obvious way of making a unique model/vehicle?

First off, IRL, Flamethrower tanks are the same size as regular tanks, so the Chimera hull is actually properly-sized for what this role.

Secondly, the Landspeeder chassis is considerably smaller unless you're using huge wheels and stuff to scratchbuild around it. The size difference is clearly to your advantage, as it'll be easier to hide, etc.

If you want to change the Hellhound design a bit, to shrink the passenger compartment into something smaller, that'd be a good idea, especially if the overall volume were roughly comparable.

   
Made in us
Privateer





The paint dungeon, Arizona

JohnHwangDD wrote:
First off, IRL, Flamethrower tanks are the same size as regular tanks, so the Chimera hull is actually properly-sized for what this role.


Thats not a point Im debating- but IRL flamethrower tanks arent faster than regular tanks of the same size are they? Nope. Theyre the same speed as the tank chassis theyre built upon.

Just putting a bigger engine(per the fluff the passenger compartment is filled with extra engine) in a tank doesnt guarantee increased speed- as if the suspension(of which chimera would have zero- no road wheel articulation) cant handle higher speeds, not to mention the added weight- its wasted effort unless the extra engine power is used for engineering purposes. And the HH isnt described an engineering vehicle- but as a fast attack choice.

Hence my desire to use a smaller/faster looking chassis.

I get to play so little lately that the 'its smaller and easier to hide' part is a minor concern over just makin a cool model that would be more fun to field that yet another chimera-hull. And I posted a WIP thread that shows how much plasticard Im already using lol And a set of 'large' GW tires and a set of 1/35 LAV wheels on the rear balance out the model pretty well so far.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

If you didn't want replies, don't ask the question.

   
Made in us
Privateer





The paint dungeon, Arizona

Nothing in my reply to you indicates I didnt want your response.

You made the comparison of IRL flame tanks, so, you opened that can :p
   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






A garden grove on Citadel Station

I actually agree with JHDD on this one. I see no reason fluff wise that they would use a completely unprecedented buggy that would be worse at being a flamethrower tank than the already common hellhound chassis. It is also far more likely to be in cover from enemy attacks due to small size.

ph34r's forgeworld Phobos blog
+From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
 
   
Made in us
Privateer





The paint dungeon, Arizona

The Imperium- being vast as it is supposed to be....you're going to try and honestly tell me every Hellhound equivalent is going to be exactly the same?

Since the IRL comparison was brought up- I'll point out jsut on a single planet (ours) there are dozens of different tanks, APC's, and armored vehicles that all fill similar roles- but are different even amongst allied countries.

And saying an 'unprecedented' buggy is kinda hollow as a counterpoint, when the current IG buzz word is Valkyrie/Vendetta, and theyre entirely unprecedented in terms of tactics and battlefield use, let alone a total lack of history
   
Made in ca
Swift Swooping Hawk





Calgary, AB

Mistress of minis wrote:The Imperium- being vast as it is supposed to be....you're going to try and honestly tell me every Hellhound equivalent is going to be exactly the same?


Anything else would kind of defeat the purpose of things being made with Standard Template Constructs.

Really, though, I say go wild. If you're not planning on taking it to a GT or other major tournament, the size should never be an issue, and if they refuse to play a neat conversion because they think you did it just to win, they're a grump anyway.

The Battle Report Master wrote:i had a freind come round a few weeks ago to have a 40k apocalpocalpse game i was guards men he was space maines.... my first turn was 4 bonbaonbardlements... jacobs turn to he didnt have one i phased out.
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Tantras wrote: Logically speaking, that makes perfect sense and I understand and agree entirely... but is it RAW?
 
   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






A garden grove on Citadel Station

I mean unprecedented as in, the Imperium has never used it before. They like their STCs as Orkestra said.

ph34r's forgeworld Phobos blog
+From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

How are you going to get a Landspeeder-based buggy to represents AV12/12/10 when a Chimera is only 12/10/10 and a Landspeeder is 10 Open-topped?

Are you going to play your buggies as AV10 open-topped?

   
Made in us
Privateer





The paint dungeon, Arizona

They always talk about 'lost' STC's, most likely as a way of keeping an open door for fluff changes when it suits them. And not every world in the imperium is going to manufacture solely off of STC's.

I mean- STCs would be great if your on a Manufactorum Hive world that spits out chimera hulls. But I think its alot more likely that there would be many more world without access to that. And hence would utilize whatever is at hand to get the job done(as soldiers through history have always done).

And if a sentinel- can go from AV10 and open topped- to AV12 just by bolting on a few plates, so could a landspeeder based buggy. Im not slapping wheels on a speeder and saying its a hellhound. I did specifically say armored car- of which the armor portion seems to have been missed?
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

An armored HUMVEE is nowhere near the armor of a Bradley IFV or Warrior MCV, to say nothing of a medium tank.

If you want to make your converted whatnot, just do it.

But clearly, most people who have an opinion don't like it.
____

Also: Run a poll if you really want to get numbers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/05 01:49:55


   
Made in us
Privateer





The paint dungeon, Arizona

Im not converting a real tank- Im converting lil toy make believe ones.

But- a bradley or warrior- dont carry a giant flame thrower- neither does a Hummer.
   
Made in be
Slippery Scout Biker




Belgium

I think it's a cool idea, and I would have no problem confronting your conversion on the tabletop as long as it looks the part.
There is a lack of scout car type vehicles in 40K, so go for it!

Hey nonny nonny milord! 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Mistress of minis wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
First off, IRL, Flamethrower tanks are the same size as regular tanks, so the Chimera hull is actually properly-sized for what this role.


Thats not a point Im debating- but IRL flamethrower tanks arent faster than regular tanks of the same size are they? Nope. Theyre the same speed as the tank chassis theyre built upon.

Just putting a bigger engine(per the fluff the passenger compartment is filled with extra engine) in a tank doesnt guarantee increased speed- as if the suspension(of which chimera would have zero- no road wheel articulation) cant handle higher speeds, not to mention the added weight- its wasted effort unless the extra engine power is used for engineering purposes. And the HH isnt described an engineering vehicle- but as a fast attack choice.

Hence my desire to use a smaller/faster looking chassis.

I get to play so little lately that the 'its smaller and easier to hide' part is a minor concern over just makin a cool model that would be more fun to field that yet another chimera-hull. And I posted a WIP thread that shows how much plasticard Im already using lol And a set of 'large' GW tires and a set of 1/35 LAV wheels on the rear balance out the model pretty well so far.


Actually MoM I do believe hellhound variants are now FAST (I don't have codex here). Again you can remedy footprint issues by having your mini on a permanent or magnetized base the same ssize as a chimera footprint. You can ask beforehand if they want that size or you can take the opportunity to just make a permanent base, with some nice fried previous victims for a high cool factor.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Privateer





The paint dungeon, Arizona

Frazzled wrote:
Mistress of minis wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
First off, IRL, Flamethrower tanks are the same size as regular tanks, so the Chimera hull is actually properly-sized for what this role.


Thats not a point Im debating- but IRL flamethrower tanks arent faster than regular tanks of the same size are they? Nope. Theyre the same speed as the tank chassis theyre built upon.

Just putting a bigger engine(per the fluff the passenger compartment is filled with extra engine) in a tank doesnt guarantee increased speed- as if the suspension(of which chimera would have zero- no road wheel articulation) cant handle higher speeds, not to mention the added weight- its wasted effort unless the extra engine power is used for engineering purposes. And the HH isnt described an engineering vehicle- but as a fast attack choice.

Hence my desire to use a smaller/faster looking chassis.


Actually MoM I do believe hellhound variants are now FAST (I don't have codex here). Again you can remedy footprint issues by having your mini on a permanent or magnetized base the same ssize as a chimera footprint. You can ask beforehand if they want that size or you can take the opportunity to just make a permanent base, with some nice fried previous victims for a high cool factor.


Fraz, I know theyre fast, hence part of my belief theyre too big and impractical platform for a fast vehicle

But a larger bae isnt a bad idea, Im jsut htinking most, if any complaints will come from it being able to gain cover more easily since its smaller in profile. I guess I could make a chimera outline/template for the rare occasions its actually an issue.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

If its a skimmer (with/without wheels, sorry maybe misinterpreting) then:

1. If skimmer just have the skimmer raised as high as a normal hellhound turret.
2. If a wheelie again just have the top has high as a standard hellhound turret. If the vehicle itself is too short then have it raised up on the base.

LOS/profiles issues should be moot at that point. If you don’t have a hellhound it’s the height of a regular chimera turret.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

The fastest armored vehicle that the US fields is the M1 Abrams. It is a huge Tank that weighs twice as much as a M2 Bradley.

   
Made in us
Privateer





The paint dungeon, Arizona

An m1 abrams is faster than a bradley, most definitely.

Does its basic form carry troops? No.

Does it carry a flame thrower? Nope.

Does it have an obvious and elaborate suspension system? Very much so (chimera hulls on the other hand do not)

And comparing its lofty tracked agility to a skimmer equivalent- is it as fast as say- a UH-60? No. (whereas a hellhound- is supposed to be as fast as most skimmer based vehicles)

So its comparison here is rather irrelevant We're talking about APC based tank variants- not main battle tanks. Comparing modern equivalents- to IG tanks is sorta silly anyway- as the basic IG tanks are based upon WWI and WWII tank basics. No sloped armor, utter lack of suspension articulation, firing ports on top of the passenger compartment? Huge cannon mounted in silly miniature turrets? (And-that turret on a LRuss being the only crew access point?) the list goes on.

But, theyre fun caricatures of tanks, and we love them despite their 'practical' failings.
   
Made in us
Leutnant







i have to agree with the OP here, the body is just to boxy too look fast. as long as it is mounted on wheels, it would be cool, and if you really want to shut the nay sayers up use plastic card to box up the open space on the speeder to give it a light tank look.



Ketara wrote:
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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Do I need to shift this to modeling at this point?

Have you tried Ork deffkoptas as a core vehicle as well?
Might be cheaper.

EDIT: Belay that. I like them but they would look sucky for your concept.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/06 20:59:15


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Privateer





The paint dungeon, Arizona

I have a WIP thread in modeling already
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/246737.page

And deff coptas are way too flimsy/junky lookin, be really hard to make it look 'Imperial' . The SM landspeeder makes a just about perfectly sized frame for an IG armored car. And I think it can refelct enough armor to warrant av12(with lots of plasti card work), where I doubt I could do that with a kopta and have it look reasonable.
   
Made in ro
Regular Dakkanaut



Romania

My thoughts: is the model has the round base...and with the rule WYSIWYG I willl never complain...but in a Tournament...if a player does not agrres with it-he has the codex,rules etc on his side

BRINGG BACK THE SQUATS!!!! WARHAMMER 40K - SPACE DWARFSSS 
   
Made in us
Privateer





The paint dungeon, Arizona

usa_supersonic wrote:My thoughts: is the model has the round base...and with the rule WYSIWYG I willl never complain...but in a Tournament...if a player does not agrres with it-he has the codex,rules etc on his side


Could you let me know where that rule is? Im not being contrary- if there are rules that would prohibit the use in a tournament I'd like to be aware/informed.
   
 
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