Claiming Captured BSB bonus against undead

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**Red_Zeke**

So here's a question...

Can you get your +100 VPs for capturing a VC's BSB if you kill the Vampire carrying it through crumbling his unit around him? Specific situation, the BSB and 4 models remain: They lose combat by a sufficient amount to crumble all remaining models in one turn. Do you capture the standard?

Relevant quote, p 83, BRB:
"If the battle standard bearer has joined a unit and he is slain in close combat and his unit breaks and flees in the very same turn, the battle standard can be captured..."
"If the battle standard bearer has joined a unit and is slain in close combat, but his unit does not break in the same turn, the battle standard is simply removed as a casualty and cannot be captured."

Looks like a very depressing no. It would be different if you crumbled every ghoul around the BSB in one combat phase, then crumbled him in the following turn once he was on his own. Stupid undead.

RZ

**Ragnar4**

I was under the impression that if you could crumble the unit around him on the same turn, it was fine and you did get the +100 vp's, but if your opponent was shifty, he would crumble the banner if he realized the unit was a lost cause, and try to get rid of it before the unit dissolved around him.

I don't know why I'm remembering it the way I am... but I distinctly remember coming to a very solid conclusion... did you check the FAQ's?

**Jin**

Well, the rules indicate that you get banners "if the unit flees". Since undead can't really ever break or flee, I'm gonna say that you cannot capture the banner.

Not sure if there's an FAQ about this or not, though.

**Ragnar4**

Yeah, but if you kill the unit and kill the BSB in the same turn you get the points too right?

**Red_Zeke**

Ragnar,

Much as I would like that to be the case, it doesn't appear so. There's nothing in the FAQ that I could find on it either. It looks like, strictly speaking, you can get the BSB if it runs (i.e. not going to happen with undead) or if he you kill him when he is fighting on his own. If at the end of combat, he and three of his buddies all crumble at the same time, you haven't killed him on his own...

RZ

**BorderCountess**

Bear in mind that if you wipe a unit out in close combat, you can still capture their banner. As crumbling the unit counts as wiping them out, you can still capture the BSB in that method.

**Ragnar4**

It's kinda funny how manfred said the exact same thing as I did, yet more eloquently.. I wonder if they'll argue with him too?

**Bat Manuel**

Nope

**BorderCountess**

About your 'shifty' comment: Can you even assign crumble wounds to a character if there are still models in his unit?

**Red_Zeke**

Actually, I'll stretch it out a little more. I guess it depends on how you think the exceptions on page 83 apply in reference to the rules for normal standards on page 80. Clearly unit standards can be captured if a unit is wiped out.

The question is whether any of the "exceptions" on page 83 trump that.

RZ

**orcplayer**

Shifty's comment can happen if the only thing left is the command. Then its counts as all char. and he can asign wounds as he see's fit i think.

**BorderCountess**

The only real difference between a BSB and a unit standard is that if you kill the BSB, but his unit doesn't break THAT TURN, you can't capture the banner. That is the ONLY scenario described on page 83 in which you CANNOT capture the Battle Standard.

Given how dusting a unit of Undead via combat resolution counts as wiping out the unit for purposes of capturing banners, the only way for a VC player to deny an opponent to BSB is the same as for anyone else: for the BSB to die, but his unit to keep fighting.

**Ragnar4**

Manfred von Drakken wrote:About your 'shifty' comment: Can you even assign crumble wounds to a character if there are still models in his unit?

Yeah, you can assign wounds however you like, it just doesn't make sense, in most cases, to assign wounds to characters first because they are usually the swinger in a combat.

But if a unit of chaos knights charges an isolated unit of skeleton warriors with a BSB in front, and kills like 12 models on the charge, and you're only going to have 4 models left, by all means crumble the BSB immediately, because there is no way you're saving the unit. You prevent him from getting the BSB points.

Last edition there was an erratta that came from the same guy that wrote the skaven book, where he suggested you could cruble EVERY banner and not give away the points. Boy Vamp Counts players *loved* that one. They would take like 8 units of 16 model skeletons, and then just baloon em up to huge sizes. If he knew he was going to lose the unit, he'd let it die and crumble the banner. It was stupid gross.