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captain alrahem sas an order called "like the wind" which says "the ordered unit may immediately make a shooting attack and then move D6 inches in the direction of your choice." it seems to me that the spirit behind this tallarn style order is a hit and run attack. im thinking you would be able to fire the heavy weapons attached to the squad using this special order even though RAW says you cant fire heavy weapons after moving. i think GW needs to FAQ this. your thoughts...

The Angry Commissar wrote: im thinking you would be able to fire the heavy weapons attached to the squad using this special order even though RAW says you cant fire heavy weapons after moving.

If the rules stated that you couldn't fire Heavies after moving, you wouldn't have a problem.

They actually just say that if you move, you can't fire heavy weapons. Move or shoot, not both.

So, no, you don't get to shoot your heavies and move.

I'd assume that it doesn't apply to heavy weapons teams... however under his rules it does look like this order can be given to ANY unit and they may still move.

I didn't even think of that, good one! I'd love to know the answer to this...

insaniak wrote:

The Angry Commissar wrote: im thinking you would be able to fire the heavy weapons attached to the squad using this special order even though RAW says you cant fire heavy weapons after moving.

If the rules stated that you couldn't fire Heavies after moving, you wouldn't have a problem.

They actually just say that if you move, you can't fire heavy weapons. Move or shoot, not both.

So, no, you don't get to shoot your heavies and move.

Sorry, but I am gonna have to disagree. If you don't move in the Movement Phase, nothing is stopping you shooting the Heavy Weapon with this order and then moving.

Yep, the no move bit is only regarding the movement phase. Has nothing to do with what happens after you shoot. Use it and enjoy.

Gwar! wrote:Sorry, but I am gonna have to disagree. If you don't move in the Movement Phase, nothing is stopping you shooting the Heavy Weapon with this order and then moving.

Based on what?

The Heavy weapon rules section doesn't refer to the Movement Phase at all.

If a unit moves, it cannot shoot... OK, at the time it shoots, has the unit moved? No? Good to go, shoot away. The Heavy Weapons rules don't restrict what you do AFTER shooting, altho the phrase "they either move or shoot, but not both" could be taken out of context to say that, I suppose.

I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work. Same reason is can assault after using this order on units with assault/pistol weapons. What it effectively does is allow your hws to shoot and then dive back into cover.

Codex trumps rulebook. If the unit did not move in the movement phase, then Al'Raheim's special order works. Its a special situation that allows a unit to fire and then move.

dumplingman wrote:Codex trumps rulebook. If the unit did not move in the movement phase, then Al'Raheim's special order works. Its a special situation that allows a unit to fire and then move.

^This

The special rule, in this case the order, is an exception that overrides the general rule that you cannot move and fire a heavy weapon.

hmm interesting. my op was in regard with moving in the movement phase and then giving the order. we've gone in a slightly different direction but a whole new issue has arisen. cool =)

The Angry Commissar wrote:hmm interesting. my op was in regard with moving in the movement phase and then giving the order. we've gone in a slightly different direction but a whole new issue has arisen. cool =)

Ah well, in that case, no, you cannot fire the heavy weapons, because you moved in the Movement Phase.

One thing to remember here as well, the movement is NOT a Run. That means Veteran with Shotguns for example can move, fire, move again via the order and then assault

*que darth vader voice* Impressive...

don_mondo wrote:If a unit moves, it cannot shoot... OK, at the time it shoots, has the unit moved? No? Good to go, shoot away. The Heavy Weapons rules don't restrict what you do AFTER shooting, altho the phrase "they either move or shoot, but not both" could be taken out of context to say that, I suppose.

You cannot do something "now" that would force you to break a rule "later" for example

a unit of Grey Hunters have bolters, they are joined by Ragnar Blackmane, who says that a unit he is joined with must assault if within 6" of an enemy.

If you are within 6" of an enemy at the start of your shooting phase you CANNOT fire your bolters, as that would force you into breaking the rule about assaulting+rapid fire weapons in the next phase. You could however run in the shooting phase to get out of the 6" range to assault.

You cannot move and shoot heavy weapons regardless of when the movement takes place, so if you use this order, you cannot fire your heavy weapons as that would be breaking the move or fire rule.

Yeah, but in that case, it is doing an action that would prevent an action later. This is not. You are doing an action after doing something which you normally could not do before doing the action...

I'm confused now :(

Demogerg wrote:

don_mondo wrote:If a unit moves, it cannot shoot... OK, at the time it shoots, has the unit moved? No? Good to go, shoot away. The Heavy Weapons rules don't restrict what you do AFTER shooting, altho the phrase "they either move or shoot, but not both" could be taken out of context to say that, I suppose.

You cannot do something "now" that would force you to break a rule "later" for example

a unit of Grey Hunters have bolters, they are joined by Ragnar Blackmane, who says that a unit he is joined with must assault if within 6" of an enemy.

If you are within 6" of an enemy at the start of your shooting phase you CANNOT fire your bolters, as that would force you into breaking the rule about assaulting+rapid fire weapons in the next phase. You could however run in the shooting phase to get out of the 6" range to assault.

You cannot move and shoot heavy weapons regardless of when the movement takes place, so if you use this order, you cannot fire your heavy weapons as that would be breaking the move or fire rule.

My first question ever to GW back in the day was regarding Blood Claws rapid firing their pistols and not being able to charge, since the rule states you must. At that time, the answer was if you shoot, then you can't charge. I know there were FAQ's that changed that, but I don't believe there's anything in the rules that prohibits you from shooting, and thus preventing a mandatory charge. I've always seen as if you can charge, then you must.

Gwar! wrote:
One thing to remember here as well, the movement is NOT a Run. That means Veteran with Shotguns for example can move, fire, move again via the order and then assault

. I happen to have a fully converted shotgun armed Veteran squad. If i ever decide to employ Al`Rahem, I have to keep this in mind. Propably only works once or twice but the look on the opponents face will be worth it.

Demogerg wrote:
You cannot move and shoot heavy weapons regardless of when the movement takes place, so if you use this order, you cannot fire your heavy weapons as that would be breaking the move or fire rule.

Excepting (AOBR rulebook p28) "If a model with a heavy weapon remains stationary it may fire the number of times indicated and up to the maximum range of the weapon. If the model (or his unit) moved, however, it cannot shoot that weapon."
Al'Rahem's order takes place after movement, and specifically notes Shoot, then move.
Since (AOBR Rulebook p9) the turn sequence is: 1. Movement Phase 2. Shooting Phase 3. Assault, the Orders are issued before shooting, and all Orders modify what a unit can do (bonus to cover for going to ground, allowing a unit to act the turn after going to ground etc) I'm pretty convinced that the heavy weapons *do* get to move after shooting, but they may not assault after shooting, per normal.

I think of it like this:

The order was probably designed to be used with lasguns, the standard weapon of the IG arsenal. As a rapid fire weapon you cannot move & fire at a range of over 12" per the rulebook. If this rule were to include the movement after the order, then the order would be pretty pointless most of the time. Though GW seem to enjoy inventing a fair few pointless or poorly worded rules I am a firm advocate of following 'the spirit of the rules' whether the advantage will fall my way or otherwise.

As such, if the squad has not moved during the movement phase, firing then moving with a rapid fire weapon at over 12" per the order is allowed, and therefore so is firing then moving with the heavy weapon.

BTW, I love the idea of utilising shotguns with this rule for up to an 18" assault!

Cavalier wrote:As such, if the squad has not moved during the movement phase, firing then moving with a rapid fire weapon at over 12" per the order is allowed, and therefore so is firing then moving with the heavy weapon.

The Rapid Fire one I would agree with, since the Rapid Fire rules entry specifically refers to the unit having 'moved' - past tense. So movement happening after the shot is fine.

The Heavy rules entry does not use past tense for the movement. You can move or shoot, not both.

If we choose not to take that to RAW extremes (limiting the unit to moving or shooting for the entire game, since it never actually specifies that this applies to any specific time period ) and assume that they mean that you can only move or shoot in a given turn, then given the wording it makes no difference whether the movement comes before or after the shot.

If you move in the Movement phase, you can't shoot that turn. So Al Rahem's order doesn't work on that unit.
If you shoot in the Shooting phase, you can't move that turn. So Al Rahem's order doesn't work on that unit.


It doesn't over ride the Heavy restriction because the Heavy restriction is more specific. Al Rahem grants a shoot and move to any unit. Heavy restricts a unit with a specific type of weapon to moving or shooting, not both. More specific trumps more general, unless specifically addressed in the rules otherwise.

If we have a look at how orders are issued, we can get an idea of how this works.

Orders are issued at the start of the shooting phase. The unit must immediately do what the order says ( guardsmen aren't paid to think ). If Al'Rahem says "shoot then move d6" the unit must do it.

Keep in mind that codex trumps rulebook, we can see that a heavy weapon could stay still in the movement phase ( enabling it to fire ), shoot then move d6 after being ordered. No problem as there is no clause of ... but not if you fired heavy weapons in the order.

If your using the good old codex trumps rulebook then there is no reason why you couldn't move in the movement phase, then be ordered to immediately shoot and move d6. Rulebook says you can not move and shoot heavys ( agreed on no time period stated ) but the order says you must immediately do what Al'Rahem says. Al'Rahem says shoot then move d6.

In both cases you would not be able to assault as the order does not change anything about shooting heavy weapons then charging. Vets with shotguns would be fine but no heavy weapons.

Specific vs general: Yes it's a nice way to resolve things. If you're going to use it then I would have thought that a rule in the rulebook that is common to everyone ( general ) is trumped by a special characters unique order from a rulebook trumping codex ( specific ).

I hate to throw a spanner into the ymdc works, but....

Say a unit rolls a double one to recieve 'like the wind!', it could then be ordered to 'bring it down!' giving you a situation of something like: move 6, 'like the wind!' shoot +d6 move, and then your free 'bring it down!' allows you to shoot again, and then potentially assault after it if you fired no heavy weapons.

Is this a precedent for orders letting you do something not normally allowed by the rule book? FRFSRF! + bring it down! for example, I bet loads of guard players have rolled a double one and done that. Does that mean they have to be monstrous creatures to carry out the order? or are they just allowed to do it because codex trumps rulebook?

"if the order is successfully passed, the ordered unit immediately makes a Shooting attack (it may not run). When this has been resolved, the unit immediately moves d6 in a direction of your choice."
There's no may about it.

Get Back In the Fight returns a unit to action in violation of going to ground. I would seem to me that these would be more consistent if they both performed effectively illegal actions

middle wrote:Say a unit rolls a double one to recieve 'like the wind!', it could then be ordered to 'bring it down!

No, it couldn't. Read the rules for Orders again. You cannot give a unit more than 1 order, regardless of the orders success.

Cheers Gwar!

Just checked. It's the officer that orders again but to a different unit.

Was just a thought that popped into my head after i'd written my post. I guess we can ignore that bit then.

middle wrote:Specific vs general: Yes it's a nice way to resolve things.

It's not just a 'nice way to resolve things'... it's the only way a rule system can work.

The rules outline general rules that apply to everyone, and then apply more specific rules to certain units. If those specific rules don't trump the more general, there would be no point having them, as they wouldn't actually do anything.

If you're going to use it then I would have thought that a rule in the rulebook that is common to everyone ( general ) is trumped by a special characters unique order from a rulebook trumping codex ( specific ).

Sure. But that's not what's happening in this case.

Again, what's happening here is that a rule from a codex that applies to every unit is conflicting with a rule from the rulebook that applies to models with a specific type of weapon.

More specific takes precedence. So the unit can move or shoot that turn, not do both.