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I've been getting a generous dose of playing against mech IG. I can't say it's been fun, lol. Tonight I was playing my friend's drop pod dread army vs. a vet melta spam list. He moved a LRBT Executioner squadron and had the front tank blocking the right sponson of the LRBT behind it. He proceeded to fire and I stopped asking how he was getting the number of shots he was taking. He says squadron models don't block line of sight to each other. I was like WTF, that can't be. So I look up and sure as there it was.

From BRB, pages 58 and 59 for vehicles shooting and page 64 for squadrons contridiction.

My question is this. How in a rules edition aimed at using TLOS can GW rule that squadrons don't block LOS to each other model within squads? Rear LRBT sponsons completely behind front LRBT sponsons and it' all good.

TLOS doesn't really mean TLOS. Thank you, G Dub!

<Rant over>

I'm just looking to hear what others are saying and what experiences you have had.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:My question is this. How in a rules edition aimed at using TLOS can GW rule that squadrons don't block LOS to each other model within squads?

Why would they not rule it that way, when it works like that for every other unit on the board as well?

insaniak wrote:

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:My question is this. How in a rules edition aimed at using TLOS can GW rule that squadrons don't block LOS to each other model within squads?

Why would they not rule it that way, when it works like that for every other unit on the board as well?

Troopers LOS is from eyes/head to target. Vehicles LOS is from gun barrel to target. Alittle more believable that a trooper could lean to get shot. A vehicle like a LRBT, not so much.

Just saying!

While that's true, it would give vehicles in squadrons a significant disadvantage to lone vehicles (having to stay close to a giant hunk of metal that can block you LOS would suck)

And remember the golden rule: 40K rules and common sense are rarely related.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:
Troopers LOS is from eyes/head to target. Vehicles LOS is from gun barrel to target. Alittle more believable that a trooper could lean to get shot. A vehicle like a LRBT, not so much.
Just saying!

GW have to make an awful 5th edition , in preparation for everyone to praise the lord when they introduce 6th edition.

Why else would a game that has been around for .... 30 years? still cant come up with anything decent?
GW is doing it on purpose .

LunaHound wrote:
Why else would a game that has been around for .... 30 years? still cant come up with anything decent?
GW is doing it on purpose .

That's the other theory.

Seems to me that that this is still meager balance for the immobilized = destroyed squadron rule.

I think it's meant to balance out the fact that the entire squadron must fire at a single enemy unit. It would be a rather unnecessarily large pain to manoeuvre 3 LRBT within 4 inches of each other and prevent blocking LOS when other squads don't have the same requirement.

The 'dynamic battlefield' rationale seems reasonable to me:

BRB pg 64 - "This represents the vehicles manoeuvring around each other in a practiced battle formation."

Then again, the IG are my lads so I clearly can't be trusted...

I think GW would have been ok doing this if they hadn't previously mentioned the term TLOS. The game isn't really TLOS, yet they make the claim that it is.

Saying it is something when, in reality, it isn't is my personal pet peeve with this edition.

A squadron of vehicles is a unit pretty much like any other unit in the game abstraction is used to make things simple.

When you fire at a squadron you check range to and use the armor arc from the closest vehicle in the squadron. Cover saves are given to the entire squadron if, and only if, at least half of the squadron is in cover from the firing models.

And as with any other unit, the actual models within the squadron don't block LOS to and from each other.

The same principle applies to when the squadron is being fired at, so why wouldn't it apply when the squadron is firing itself?

It just seems like people want to moan about any rule that doesn't benefit them in a game without realizing that abstractions are needed to keep the game moving quickly on a squad-based level.

yakface wrote:It just seems like people want to moan about any rule that doesn't benefit them in a game without realizing that abstractions are needed to keep the game moving quickly on a squad-based level.

QFT. Why is this in YMTC Anyway?

Wow... That IS frigging weird...
It's easy to understand and imagine that a soldier on foot would crouch or move aside to let his pal behind him fire... but how the hell is a TANK supposed to do the same thing?
If it's in the way, it's in the way, by all realistic thinking.
I guess GW missed the realism mark on that one. >.>

InquisitorBob wrote:Wow... That IS frigging weird...
It's easy to understand and imagine that a soldier on foot would crouch or move aside to let his pal behind him fire... but how the hell is a TANK supposed to do the same thing?
If it's in the way, it's in the way, by all realistic thinking.
I guess GW missed the realism mark on that one. >.>

Yeah, because it is realistic for tanks to just stop moving whenever they need to shoot, or whenever the enemy needs to move and to always shoot at the same time.

It is more realistic to NOT let them block LOS, because it can be assumed they took their shots before their Squadron Buddies moved into position to take their shots.

InquisitorBob wrote:Wow... That IS frigging weird...
It's easy to understand and imagine that a soldier on foot would crouch or move aside to let his pal behind him fire... but how the hell is a TANK supposed to do the same thing?
If it's in the way, it's in the way, by all realistic thinking.
I guess GW missed the realism mark on that one. >.>

You can't miss a mark you're not shooting for. Anyway, this seems like one of those topics where the only reason it's come up is because someone wants to whine, not because there's a legitimate point of discussion. There's nothing at all unreasonable about squadrons not blocking its own members LoS. Vehicle models are big, and when they're in squadrons, they have to stay close together. So unless you kept them abreast and nothing else, you'd be blocking your own shots way too often. Then we'd be hearing legitimate complaints from Tau players about a full flight of Piranhas never being able to get it's full allotment of shots off, Warwalkers getting in the way of their own scatter lasers, or landspeeders blocking their own firelanes.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:I've been getting a generous dose of playing against mech IG. I can't say it's been fun, lol. Tonight I was playing my friend's drop pod dread army vs. a vet melta spam list. He moved a LRBT Executioner squadron and had the front tank blocking the right sponson of the LRBT behind it. He proceeded to fire and I stopped asking how he was getting the number of shots he was taking. He says squadron models don't block line of sight to each other. I was like WTF, that can't be. So I look up and sure as there it was.

From BRB, pages 58 and 59 for vehicles shooting and page 64 for squadrons contridiction.

My question is this. How in a rules edition aimed at using TLOS can GW rule that squadrons don't block LOS to each other model within squads? Rear LRBT sponsons completely behind front LRBT sponsons and it' all good.

TLOS doesn't really mean TLOS. Thank you, G Dub!

<Rant over>

I'm just looking to hear what others are saying and what experiences you have had.

Yes this may feel wrong. On the other hand you can't get a coversave from tanks in the same squadron and You only need to be in range of one tank and can hit all of them

Gwar! wrote:

InquisitorBob wrote:Wow... That IS frigging weird...
It's easy to understand and imagine that a soldier on foot would crouch or move aside to let his pal behind him fire... but how the hell is a TANK supposed to do the same thing?
If it's in the way, it's in the way, by all realistic thinking.
I guess GW missed the realism mark on that one. >.>

Yeah, because it is realistic for tanks to just stop moving whenever they need to shoot, or whenever the enemy needs to move and to always shoot at the same time.

It is more realistic to NOT let them block LOS, because it can be assumed they took their shots before their Squadron Buddies moved into position to take their shots.

Haha! Point taken.