Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As intended - per GW - it is to immerse the player into the game and get a model's eye view of the game. As written, you should be looking from a model's eye view to determine if it can see part of the target unit or it can't fire. Yes members of a unit do not block LOS for each other but other units - friend or foe - would block LOS.

Since it came out in 5th Ed, I have seen and played in multiple games it it always seems to be played when one critical shot is done. Usually TLOS is checked for some models but it is not universally applied.

I am imagining all the Ard Boyz games and laughing at the thought of someone insisting on TLOS checks on a hoard player... orks, bugs, IG... The sheer time consumption of checking each individual ork for LOS to a target and the 2 1/2 hours per round should result in something like a Turn 2 call to the game.

In practice, what I am seeing is TLOS is only pulled out for a perceived "important" shot in a game otherwise it is TLOS from one fig to one target fig with liberal 4+ cover saves being handed out.

What is your experience?

TLOS is pretty easy to eyeball from above. If it is unclear, then you check. This is as RaW as it gets. Nothing says you MUST CHECK FOR EVERY SINGLE MODEL EVERY TIME SO HELP YOU! If it is clear that the unit can see the other, don't bother leaning down and checking.

Also note that "true" line of sight is not a new concept. With a few exceptions, the rules have used "true" line of sight since at least third edition.

Ghaz wrote:Also note that "true" line of sight is not a new concept. With a few exceptions, the rules have used "true" line of sight since at least third edition.

I beg to differ. Until 5th ed, LOS was to a model and you could not target a part of a unit you could not see. You proved one fig in your shooting unit could see the target and then measured range to a seen unit. So weapon range was what determined who could and could not shoot. The upside is you could only kill what you could see. 5th ed turned it around and now you have to have LOS from the targeter to at least 1 model in a target unit and now you can shoot and kill the entire target unit not just limited exposed models. (This is good and bad of course... got rid of character sniping.)

As an example, say 30 ork boys are closing in on a unit of 20 berzerkers. Behind the boyz are 15 lootas. With TLOS rules, the 30 orks have no problem seeing at least 1 of the 20 berzerkers as they are all part of the same unit the other boyz in the mob to not block LOS. So 60 shootas unload and kill 3 berzerkers. Now the lootas are slightly offset to the right but only 5 can prove LOS to say one of 3 berzerkers. So then only 5 lootas can target it.

This sounds easy, straightforward and no problem. Now let's greentide this and have 3 units of 30 boyz all charging forward and not in a straight line. By RAW - as I understand it - I should be individually checking TLOS from each of the boyz remembering not to worry about the other 29 boyz in my unit but remember to count the 60 boyz in the other two units as potentially blocking my shot. This is where I am saying TLOS falls apart and gets practically discarded.

TLOS is a wonderful low numbers rule and works well for small armies of high quality troops but - in my opinion - flounders with low cost hoards.

I always applied literal line of sight, ever since second edition. However, with horde armies you just need to be sort of liberal with it. I agree that stuff like potential tank-killers and other important shots need more attention, but that's just a smart gamer setting priorities so that the other guy doesn't spend an hour sitting around waiting for you to do an IRS audit on every little thing.

I believe you're confused on what "true" line of sight is. I stand by my statement that the rules have used "true" line of sight since third edition, if not before.

Ghaz wrote:I believe you're confused on what "true" line of sight is. I stand by my statement that the rules have used "true" line of sight since third edition, if not before.

Ghaz and Gwar! are correct

Certain people are a little too in love with their own opinions on Dakka, as this thread amply demonstrates.

DAaddict wrote:Since it came out in 5th Ed,...

As has been pointed out, TLOS did not 'come out' in 5th edition. It's been the core of the LOS rules for every edition of the game so far.'

The exact way that it works with units has changed slightly over the years, but the central concept of drawing LOS from the model's eye to the target has always been there.

I am imagining all the Ard Boyz games and laughing at the thought of someone insisting on TLOS checks on a hoard player... orks, bugs, IG... The sheer time consumption of checking each individual ork for LOS to a target and the 2 1/2 hours per round should result in something like a Turn 2 call to the game.

I'm curious as to whether you actually play a horde army.

I've been playing Orks since 2nd edition. In practice, checking LOS from a large unit takes a couple of seconds. In most cases, if it isn't already obvious from above, you can just skim along the unit at head height, stopping when you reach a model that can no longer see the target.