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Frank Fugger wrote:
That's basically what Stelek means when he says they're "bottom of competetive" and also the reasoning behind his forming of this opinion, and if we look at the standings from UK ToS they sort of bear that out. Orks didn't win. They placed well, though. If there weren't so many of them, and people hadn't been bringing flabby DA/ Tyranid lists to the party, they probably wouldn't have done so well.

As an aside... What would be helpful if people would stop feeling personally slighted by what I'm saying and take a step back, look at 40K for what it is, and try to apply my logic to it. In the grand scheme of things this is just a thread on a messageboard, but in terms of 40K it's a discussion worth having if you've got the patience and the motivation to sit through it. If you can do these things, and you find some objective evidence that you feel counters my argument, by all means throw it out there. I assure you that if I'm proven wrong in a conclusive way, I'll hold my hands up and admit it. It needs to be conclusive, though, rather than conjectural or hypothetical.

If you can't do that, and would instead prefer to continue bawwing and RAEGing at me personally... meh. It's your dime, I suppose. For my part I'll do my best to keep you folks entertained, but I'm afraid that with the sudden emergence into the debate of people able to form coherent sentences and cohesive arguments I might be too busy to respond to you personally. I'll be thinking of you though. Honestly.

Are you Stelek's spokesman now?

People were saying you were acting like a dick... well, because you were acting like a dick.

That said your "New" argument certainly comes across better now that it doesn't contain the insults and talking down tone.

Still, the Ork codex is very competitive regardless of the environment. Even the most recent tournament results support this. All the other hard lists got to play the easy lists as well, so I do not see how that makes much difference.

I did notice a significant decrease in the number of Ork players at the 2 tournaments I attended this weekend. Guard and Chaos are for sure the flavor of the month. I wonder Frank how this will effect your future studies?

Probably better I just shut up.

Yeah those stinkin' Orks...

Danny Internets wrote:If one claims subjective data is an insufficient source from which to draw valid conclusions, then one can't use other subjective data to refute said conclusions. By one's own logic, the refutation is not adequately supported.

What an eloquent way of pointing out what I giant turd this thread has become. Man it really smells like piss in here.

Elessar wrote: Do you allow Drop Pods to shoot through their own hull? If not, this is not a valid stance. Anyone who tries to pull this on you does so because they wish to actually use TLOS - as Alessio said he intended.

I hardly see how you can compare vehicle LOS with normal unit LOS, they are a completely different set of rules.

Elessar wrote:No its not. The only difference is that vehicle LOS, and therefore vision, is drawn from the gun mounting, and along the barrel. Infantry LOS is drawn from the eyes.

Allowing an Infantryman to shoot through his OWN head is the exact same as allowing a vehicle to shoot through it's own hull.

Except non-vehicle units ignore models in their own unit for LOS. So how do you get that don't ignore shooting through the actual models head but you do ignore another model in the units head? RAW allows you to ignore models in that unit, the model you are drawing LOS from, is in that unit.

Danny Internets wrote:
Were those top ten by battlepoints or by fluffy hobby competition overall points? The former is somewhat relevant, though one would also have to argue that Necrons and Tyranids are competitive (they're not), and the latter makes this laughable as far as support is concerned.

Dude, just shut up. If you have never played a competitive Nid list in 5th edition you are playing the wrong people.

Obviously you, Frank, and Stelek play in this little bubble of a Universe where Sun revolves strictly around you guys. For the rest of us apparently incapable players, National Tournament Results as well as personal experience will help determine our meta game. Not some flame tactic blog site maintained and created by a guy who was permanently banned from this forum for being a gigantic douche bag.

Danny Internets wrote:

Dude, just shut up.

No u!

I'm sorry that it gets you all butthurt, but if you honestly think Tyranids are competitive in a 5th edition mech environment then you're playing a different game than everyone else.

Also, what does Stelek have to do with this? Do you throw unprovoked insults at strangers often?

Oh don't worry, my butt is fine. I was simply trying to save you from making even more than an ass out of yourself with your comments. While not as dominant as they once were at the end of 4th, Bugs can still hold there own against even your feared mech lists.

Again, if you can't see this... the problem sounds more like you...

Elessar wrote:

No Eldar in the Top Ten, and you think it's a reasonable basis for results? Get real.

How do you know if there were even any Eldar players there?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Elessar wrote:[
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

That's priceless.

Read Danny's Blog, maybe you'll learn how to play the game well.

Orks = Bottom of Competitive. Necrons = Bottom of the Barrel.

If it reflects his opinion on this and the previous threads, I will pass.

Danny Internets wrote:

Because the event rules show 4 Eldar players: http://www.thenecro.com/coverage.htm

Wow a whole 4, out of how many? And I guess since they are playing Eldar they have to be skilled players?

Elessar wrote:
Of course that was already stated, in the first of these threads. We don't disagree - but that's not the point. The point isn't what you can do to an inferior player, because it is in fact LOSING in such a situation that proves a point.

The fact, as we see it, is that Orks aren't able to stand against most evenly skilled players. I don't know how anyone can fail to understand that that is what we keep saying.

I totally understood what you were saying.

Again, I totally disagree.

While certain match ups will always favor a certain side, Orks can still be competitive when facing similar skilled opponents using your "here to stay" lists. (Tyranids as well)

Elessar wrote:@Fearspect:

That's what we started out by doing, but are now constantly needing to rebut the declaration that because Orks beat this that and the other list at PoorListCon 09 that this isn't evidence that contradicts our previous (still unanswered) points.

I have no desire to see this thread locked either.

I believe your previous points are going unanswered because they lack... a point.

You give us speculation and opinion as to why they suck.

We give you National tournaments results and our own speculation and opinion as to why they don't suck. Who's winning that debate?

You ask for evidence and then provide none in return.

I am sorry you take offense, and think I am mad or upset. I am not. Just arguing the other side. If you call me a sub par or deficient player or insinuate it in some way, expect a retort.

My opinion is just as valid as your opinion, and at least mine has some backing.

Peace out.

Elessar wrote:
In addition, I deploy similar to this (apologies for poor pic quality, best I can find at short notice) - - cramming 9 Grav Tanks (@1750) into 2 square foot of board isn't easy - but they are all at different heights, and thus confer cover saves upon the Prisms.
Basic Eldar 101, yes.

I would love to see that deployment when using my Ghaz Battlewagon spam. Even running away 24" in turn 2 would not save you. And that is even without Deff Rolla's.

Frank Fugger wrote:
At 1750 your Wagons are dead by turn 2 and your infantry is being pounded with Prism blasts. Guaranteed. No, seriously; guaranteed. Lance weapons hate you. Oh no wait but then comes the WAAAGH! and... oh dear, where are the Skimmers?!

Hardly. I bring 4 at minimum. Armor 14, granted against a lance means you need to hit, glance on 4's (I am still moving) and get by my KFF. And you only have 1.5 turns to do it. Sorry, you can't bring enough twin linked lances to that party in 1750, especially if your date is Fire Prisms.

If your that huddled in a corner I just deploy the farthest out I can in a spearhead formation, suck up turn one shooting if have to and then spread my formation to make sure your turn 2 move (are you gonna shoot or move?) will keep you in my 14-27" charge range in turn 2. If you pop some BW's in turn two it really does not matter, cause you shot and my charge at a minimum is going to extend at least 14". That is if you go first.

At that point your rear armor is going to pay.

It could go either way depending on the dice, but far, far from "guaranteed".

At this point in the debate, you guys are going to think what your going to think. I guess I can only hope I draw you at a tournament.

Elessar wrote:

PLEASE stop assuming I'm an idiot, huh?

Methoderik, count my Lances. Then, add in what you can't see, 15 Fire Dragons, and Yriel. Plenty to kill BWs with there. Especially when I'm actually shooting you in the side.

First, your not really making that too easy on us . Second, sure deployments are going to be purely situational I get that. I kinda figured that was assumed. Third, if you think my BW list is about the BW's themselves, well then I don't really know what to tell you. What is inside is what matters.

sourclams wrote:

Actually it's pretty easy for Wave Serpents to wall off your battle wagons and trap them in a small area. Then you're stuck with the [gakky] choice of disembarking to whack away at SMF or trying to ram your way out... even if Deffrollas work you're still not going to get all those serpents out of the way in a single turn; meanwhile the prisms have shot far away and are still peppering you with blasts. He can split his force and be effective, you can't.

Serpent spam Eldar are very good at dealing with Big Rock armies like BW spam and Raider spam. And BW Orks basically have to play as a Big Rock army because if you try splitting them off you lose KFF and become vulnerable to shooting.

I agree, my post was really in response to that silly deployment pictured. At 1,750 with Yriel, 15 Dragons, and Fire Prisms how many wave serpents is he really bringing? And I would welcome a wall off. The wave serpents are going to die very quickly in that situation. I am going to charge with around 50 Power Klaw attacks, and if they are walling me off, I am probably going to charge multiple if not all. They're armor 10 in the rear right, so my boyz are going to get in on the action as well. And once the Wave serpents are done, then what? Now possibly add in Deff Rollaz, and you get a whole new scenario, or boarding planks and grabbing klaws. It is so situational.

And really that is my point to this whole stupid thread. It is all situational. Frank, Elessar and whoever coming in here and saying orks suck "guaranteed" and crap like that just makes them sound... well dumb.

I am not arguing that Orks are some all powerful codex that smash through competition with auto wins. I'm not that arrogant and pompous. All I am saying is that they are competitive at the highest level. Any real gamer knows that winning a tournament or placing well is just as much luck as it is skill/list. Again, situational.

Elessar wrote:
Having now read some more about Necro, I say, in my opinion, that is was a pathetic excuse for a competition, and that I have no idea how ANYONE Top Ten'd with such dreadful lists. I read somewhere that the MechDar player who lost to Marc parker was good - maybe so, but I've read his list, and it is not.

I can't recall all the previous points, and I'm not re-scrolling 2 pages to quote various posters, sorry.

So while sitting in Northern Ireland you have deduced that the Necronomicon, a very large annual 40K tournament in the state of Florida (an ocean and continent away), is a pathetic excuse for a competition. And... you learned this from the "internets". In one broad sweep you have managed to insult the hundreds of people who attended that event and helped organize it.

While I risk banning with my next statement, I can't really help myself.

You are one of the biggest F@cktards I have ever had the displeasure of coming in contact with on this forum.

You wouldn't take it easy on a kid "cause it wouldn't help them learn anything". What a dick.

Elessar wrote:

Most of my opponents have caught up, or are playing semi-5th at least. There are a few kids, and several fluff bunnies, but in no way do I tone it down for them, because then they won't learn.

Elessar wrote:I said nothing about children. Inexperienced player =/= child.

It's a tournament badly written by Fantasy players, who gave a low comp score to a freaking Nidzilla list.

I've read about 1/3 of the participating lists, including at least half of the top ten.

They were all, barring Marc Parker's, terrible. His was merely mediocre.

If this is what passes for competitive play in your mind, then Orks are the best Codex everz, and Tic Tac Te is a difficult game.

Go suck a lemon.

Also, as for insulting the players who attended, it's not the first time today I've done so, and it won't be the last. They have every right to play the game however they want, but they can't seriously call that competitive. FYI, I've been reading up on it for over a month now - the poor quality wasn't the surprise, just the extent of the crapness.

I really don't care if you get banned or not, because you have little of interest to say - so i haven't even reported your post. Edit it out, and you might not get the thread locked, which probably doesn't matter to you either way I suppose.

Hang on, I didn't even say anything about inexperienced players...If you're referring to comments I made on YTTH, then man up and say so, share with the class.

I understand that with the incredible amount of verbal diarrhea you are spewing out it would be hard to keep track.

Elessar wrote:
@Aldonis: I sincerely wish I could afford to travel the US and even the UK stomping face and teaching people to play 5th properly. Since I can't I resort to the interwebz.

Wow... lucky us?