Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

After several experiences playing against people who disagree with me, I thought I'd ask people here what they thought about the following situations (note that I did search the board, and the answers I found were not quite satisfactory for me):

A monolith's particle whip blast lands with its center on a Vendetta's wing. Does the wing count as part of the hull? If so, is the blast str9 ap1?

A monolith's particle whip blast lands with its center hole over both a warboss on a bike as well as a battlewagon. Do they both take a s9 ap1 hit? Or does only the unit targeted take the hit?

I believe these both have the obvious answer of "yes" but wanted to see what you thought.

~Kitzz

Vehicle hulls are never clearly defined in the rules. The reason you were unsatisfied with the answers you found are because there is no real answer, you have to work out what defines a hull with your opponent/TO.

Any model under the hole takes a S9 AP1 hit, though the 2 models would have to be within about 1/4" of each other and you would have to land the marker perfectly, so I can't see it coming up very often. Remember, when you place blast markers, you have to center them over a model before scattering.

There is some debate if the wing counts as hull. I believe it does.

I am not sure how the hole can be over a warboss and a battlewagon...unless the warboss is in the battlewagon.
If that is the case, only the vehicle takes a hit.

Both of these situations actually occured, and I caved to both opponents to keep the game rolling. I intentionally aim my templates so that if the opponent puts his units too close together, I can take advantage of his mistake. As such, this situation comes up roughly 1/3 of the time my opponent does this, so it is an issue.

Deffgob wrote:. Remember, when you place blast markers, you have to center them over a model before scattering.

No, you don't. The center hole has to be over an enemy model, but it does not have to be centered on that enemy model.

don_mondo wrote:
No, you don't. The center hole has to be over an enemy model, but it does not have to be centered on that enemy model.

The blast rules tell you to choose one model and place the template so that the hole is over it's base (or hull) and the diagram shows quite clearly that the hole is entirely over the base of the target model. You can't place it so that the hole itself is over more than one, as the rules say to pick one target model.

Deffgob: OK, no problem with that statement. I agree that the only way the center hole could be on two models is for it to scatter to that location.

But that's not what you said in your previous post. You stated that the hole had to be centered on the target model, centered, as in placed as close to the middle of the target model as possible. That's all I was disagreeing with. The hole can be placed on the corner of the vehicle, so long as the hole is still on the vehicle. See what I'm saying?

The blast marker just has to be placed so that the hole is over the base of the target or it's hull if a vehicle. It cna be anywhere over the base or the hull that you choose, so long as you comply with the rest of the rules (range, friendly models).
As far as a wing bieng part of a hull, I play that it is. The rules on page 56 don't necessarily define the hull, but they do say to ignore certain things (gun barrels and antennas, etc). They don't specify the wings and I always consider them to be part of the hull, but as Deffgob said, it's best to clarify this with your opponent before play.

TW

I would say wings are part of the hull. After all, a damaged wing would make a slightly larger impact on a plane than shooting an antenna of a tank.

I would say they are -not- the hull. The hull of something is the main body. Think of the Vendetta/valkrye as a bird. The wing are limbs extending from the main body.

So, I don't think the wings are part of the hull. Part of the unit, yes, part of the hull, no.

Personally I think they are hull.
To counter the bird/body example: the 'body' of an infantry model is defined as any limbs, its torso or its head. They're still pretty damn important to keep the body working Antennas, banners, commander's noses and paraphernalia aren't essential.

Now what is REALLY interesting is if a model was under the wing, and the wing directly above said model was hit by your template weapon....

Anyone who says that a Vendetta's wings are not it's hull must be playing with a lot of vendettas. To draw LOS on a vehicle you must only see ANY part of the model. Why would the wing not be considered part of the hull? If you blow the wing off of a skimmer it goes down in flames. Why would hits against the wings of a skimmer be ignored?

Also I think a problem with not considering wings as hull, is that aren't their weapons ON the wings?
If so, you would be able to park the craft behind a larger piece of solid terrain, and then shoot without being able to be shot AT...

Eight Ball wrote:Also I think a problem with not considering wings as hull, is that aren't their weapons ON the wings?
If so, you would be able to park the craft behind a larger piece of solid terrain, and then shoot without being able to be shot AT...

Good point.

I would say wings are perfectly valid, because it is a flying object. Without the wings, it does not fly.

If they don't matter, then don't model them on to give yourself the advantage. How well do you see THAT going over in a tourney?

I would say wings are part of the hull.
If you get an immobilized result, it's most likely a wing you damaged anyway.
If you get other results, well.. the wing asplode and damaged the other thing?
*shrugs*
I guess my point is damaging a wing damages the vehicle, it's not like it's a part it can do without easily.

don_mondo wrote:You stated that the hole had to be centered on the target model, centered, as in placed as close to the middle of the target model as possible. That's all I was disagreeing with. The hole can be placed on the corner of the vehicle, so long as the hole is still on the vehicle. See what I'm saying?

ok, looking back, I did phrase that poorly, but what I meant from the start was that the center has to be fully over 1 model.

As for the whole wings thing, I think I agree with most players when I say that the wing is a part of the hull, but as I said before, the rules simply do not define "hull." If you get into an argument with someone, you really don't have much of a choice but to 4+ it. That, or don't play with people who want to interpret fuzzy rules for ridiculous advantages.

Just ask your opponent if he/she thinks a 747 would fly(correctly) with a huge gapping, molten hole blasted in its wing. If he/she say's "Yes it should fly just fine.", pack up your models and get the heck out of there, because a Logic Bomb is gona go off somewhere very close to your location.

Nicorex wrote:Just ask your opponent if he/she thinks a 747 would fly(correctly) with a huge gapping, molten hole blasted in its wing. If he/she say's "Yes it should fly just fine.", pack up your models and get the heck out of there, because a Logic Bomb is gona go off somewhere very close to your location.

A-10's do it . They can fly with less than half their wings blown off (as long as the engine is still attached). That being said...It's still part of the model and i'd say it's part of the hull

Though I am new to this forum, here is a little video clip that might shed some light on those of you that do not believe that the wing is not part of the hull when when taking a hit. Take a look and see if you can still justify that the wing is not part of the hull and will take a full strenght hit from a wepon and not a half strenght hit.

umm there is a remark about defilers and what counts as the hull for them and legs being stretched out as long as you can measure to any part of the model basicly not there for just modeling purposes it counts as a hit for instance you can easily cut that annoyingly flimsy antenea off your tank or the flag off the top of your dreadnought...but you cannot cut the wings of your valks in the same way i cannot claim my space marines heads are poking out of the base saying there in sand and that they simply swim through the sand at all times

Don't Valks need the thrusters at the tips of the wings to hover?

I'd say that makes them pretty important. (I'm not sure about the tail though.)

Let me look at it from another angle. Hull is a synonym for fuselage, the main body of the aircraft (Not including the wings).

GW really, really, needs to put out an IG FAQ. In the meantime, just discuss the issue beforehand with your opponent or with the tournament judges. Roll off on the issue if you must.