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This involves ALL conflicts in the Mid-East. Including between Israel and Palestine (and Lebennon), as well as the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Do you think it is justified? Whose side are you on? When will it end? Just any thoughts on these seemingly endless conflicts.

It will end when all regonize the coming of his Imperial Excellency Il Duce, er Frazzled.

They won't end. Peace won't come. In the middle east (and in africa), there is only war.

Wow, so best be careful kids! Won't be long before the first Somalis in Thunder Armour pop up!

It'll end when the British sponsored Australian Death Korps roll out and conquer the world.

It won't end. We are a warlike and bloody race. Although as soon as there is no more oil in that region worth getting, will we still have troops there? Nope.

Keyasa wrote:It won't end. We are a warlike and bloody race. Although as soon as there is no more oil in that region worth getting, will we still have troops there? Nope.

Although, look at Africa. Nigeria has a huge oil supply, yet we aren't in there. I think we just like the food in the middle east better.

Different conflicts, different causes and different resolutions. I guess Afghanistan can only really be ended through the breakdown and dissolution of the Taliban.

Israel/Palestine can only be ended when the Israelis stop building new settlements in Palestinian territory. From there it'll still be long road, with a lot of gestures of good faith from both sides, but nothing can begin until Israel stops the settlements.

Er, the war between them was going before that. Yassar Arafat Nobel peace prize winner (vomit) was killing Israel women and children before there was a Palestinian territories.

The only time there was peace in the Middle East was when the Ottoman Empire controlled the region. Why did the British break them up again?

Frazzled wrote:Er, the war between them was going before that. Yassar Arafat Nobel peace prize winner (vomit) was killing Israel women and children before there was a Palestinian territories.

The occupation and settlements have been going on longer than there was a Yassar Arafar. All of which has nothing to do with the idea that if you want to stop people trying to kill you, you stop taking their land.

And when given that opportunity, the PLO turned it down.

Meh. Who cares they all suck. The Mideast has been a killing ground since before history.

The nastiest wars I have ever seen have all been based or 2 different religious factions "Doing God's Work" on each other.

For that reason there will never be peace in the Middle East until either:

A. One side or the other is wiped out.

or

B. Both sides come to their senses and kill all the Clergy on both sides.

War will go on there forever. US and other "civilized" countries will only care though for as long as oil is worth something.

NeedleOfInquiry wrote:The nastiest wars I have ever seen have all been based or 2 different religious factions "Doing God's Work" on each other.

For that reason there will never be peace in the Middle East until either:

A. One side or the other is wiped out.

or

B. Both sides come to their senses and kill all the Clergy on both sides.

Warfare in the ME predates that in a big way.
Babylon, Assyria, Persia, the Hittites, Egypt, back and back and back.

QTF fraz. Africa has been a mess for about forever also. Most of it over resources, not really for religious regions.

Unfortunately its hard to find a region that has not been. We're like differing ant tribes-fighting it out left and right (goes off depressed like an emo teenager).

Frazzled wrote:And when given that opportunity, the PLO turned it down.

And when there was a chance at reconciliation, the Israeli PM was assassinated by an Israeli radical. You know, Rabin, the guy whose name was next to Arafat's on the Peace Prize.

And before that Israel was invaded by five countries. And before that and before that and before that and before that...

I restate, exactly why did the Brits break up the Ottoman Empire again?

The aliens better keep that weapons embargo up 100%. If we ever get our hands on some good blaster rifles and fighters the Galaxy won't have a chance.

"Look out, the humans are coming! The humans are coming!"

SUEZ CRISIS. Thank you mister Eden for killing the Empire once and for all.

Frazzled wrote:And before that Israel was invaded by five countries. And before that and before that and before that and before that...

And? Human beings naturally participate in organized violence. They also seem to be capable of restraining their violent instincts via the creation of various institutions. The question is: How do we build these institutions in the Middle East?

Frazzled wrote:
I restate, exactly why did the Brits break up the Ottoman Empire again?

They didn't. It fell apart due to internal pressure. Beginning with the Crimean War there were several conflicts over who would oversee the former Ottoman Territory.

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:And before that Israel was invaded by five countries. And before that and before that and before that and before that...

And? Human beings naturally participate in organized violence. They also seem to be capable of restraining their violent instincts via the creation of various institutions.

Wait, we do? Where?

North America: Civil War, Revolutionary War, 1812, Indian Wars, US-French Quasi war, Mexican American War
Central and Latin America: Guerilla wars, wars for independence. A few wars between each other, Narco wars. Thats post Spanish.
Europe: invasions of Hungary/Czechloslavakia. Bosnia. Kosova. WWII. WWI. Lots and lots of wars before that.
East Europe. Fighting off west Europe. jihadic invasions. WWII. WWI. Occasional wars between countries.
(Sigh this is getting depressing)
Africa. WWI. Revolutionary wars. Guerilla wars.
Asia. WWII. Korea, Vietnam I, II, III. guerilla wars. Pakistan/Indian wars India China. Imperial Japanese wars of aggression. I'll quit too many.
Whats left-Australia. WWII, WWI. aboriginal fun (sorry I'm not up on Aussie history) development of sexy sheila accent
Antarctica?

Frazzled wrote:I restate, exactly why did the Brits break up the Ottoman Empire again?

We never quite got the balance right when it came to "truth or dare".

If you were a real empire you'd understand this.

reds8n wrote:

Frazzled wrote:I restate, exactly why did the Brits break up the Ottoman Empire again?

We never quite got the balance right when it came to "truth or dare".

If you were a real empire you'd understand this.

Touche' Redy, touche'

Frazzled wrote:
Wait, we do? Where?

North America: Civil War, Revolutionary War, 1812, Indian Wars, US-French Quasi war, Mexican American War
Central and Latin America: Guerilla wars, wars for independence. A few wars between each other, Narco wars. Thats post Spanish.
Europe: invasions of Hungary/Czechloslavakia. Bosnia. Kosova. WWII. WWI. Lots and lots of wars before that.
East Europe. Fighting off west Europe. jihadic invasions. WWII. WWI. Occasional wars between countries.
(Sigh this is getting depressing)
Africa. WWI. Revolutionary wars. Guerilla wars.
Asia. WWII. Korea, Vietnam I, II, III. guerilla wars. Pakistan/Indian wars India China. Imperial Japanese wars of aggression. I'll quit too many.
Whats left-Australia. WWII, WWI. aboriginal fun (sorry I'm not up on Aussie history) development of sexy sheila accent
Antarctica?

Yeah, we do. You're falling pray to the same bias as most military historians; defining events by the onset of conflict while forgetting the periods of rest.

We'll have to agree to disagree. However, I'm all for you being right in this instance and would like to see these guys, adn us guys too all get along peaceably without one group trying to make the other group do what it wants.

Gee, it's not all bad. There are good humanitarians as well as the merciless generals.
Mother Teresa is way out of the "baddies" league. Don't get all depressed on me.
When there is no more oil then yeah, the big guys will probably bugger off, leaving behind a shattered nation/s. There will then be countless infighting.

Big question. What would be the first/best step to bringing peace?
P.S. Don't just anwer with "everyone getting along" or "death to all religeon", be realistic.

It won't end until another Islamic Caliphate covers the entire region again. The Empire of Perpetual Sunshine managed to screw up the Middle East beyond any hope of repair with it's astronomical levels of racism and incompetence. Completely random political boundaries forcing ancient enemies into close proximity, the creation of the ever expanding Israeli state, setting up social hierarchies that would invariably lead to oppression and bloodshed- yeah, the Brits did a bang up job ruining that area of the world. And then they criticize the American 'empire'. The irony is suffocating.

What did I say about being realistic? Not just "someone will takeover the world" type scenario.

What is unrealistic about another Islamic Caliphate? The leaders of Iran are all charismatic millennialists. Soon to be upgraded to charismatic millennialists with nuclear weapons! The Persian people are the ancient rulers of that part of the world- since prehistory. The fact that they are one of the only theocracies in the world raises their legitimacy as the seat of a new Caliphate. While they are a minority amongst Muslims (Shi'a) their stance is more attractive to many disenfranchised than the more moderate Sunni governments (I'm looking at you, Saudi Arabia).

The idea of Iran restablishing an Islamic Caliphate is not unrealistic- it could easily control the entire area from Pakistan to Turkey to Saudi Arabia. Iraq is a bit of a wild card due to US investment there, and the clear memory of the war ending in 88.

Plus- did I say anyone had to take over the world? A nation with a HUGE armed force and a patently insane ruler would have to knock over a few third world forces operating aging Soviet era equipment. You have a more plausible situation?

No, I meant a FIRST STEP to peace, not a be-all-and-end-all Islamic Caliphate. (Also, war in Israel would likely escalate.)

It could easily bring MORE conflict rather than peace.