Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

OK, I just checked the FAQ (which unexpectedly was better than GWs but still) and under Counter Attack it says they only get the attack bonus - which I can easily see it going either way - however, the FAQ sites the SW section saying they get their extra bonuses. Which makes no sense, either models would / should get their full bonuses "as if they too have assaulted". Of course it would only mention the +1A that is the only bonus 85+% of the units in the game get.

So, which is it, do units get their full bonuses as if they too have assaulted or just a +1A? and how do you reach your conclusion?

this counts as assualting as the book says on page 74 exactly as if they to had assualted- to ba dkhorne berzerkers dont have this heh?

As far as I can tell, they only count as charging for the purposes of gaining an extra attack on the charge; however, Blood Claws gain two attacks on the charge instead of one, so the extra attack is replaced by two for them.

kight wrote:this counts as assualting as the book says on page 74 exactly as if they to had assualted- to ba dkhorne berzerkers dont have this heh?

So then would FC give +1 I and S ?

orkishlyorkish wrote:

kight wrote:this counts as assualting as the book says on page 74 exactly as if they to had assualted- to ba dkhorne berzerkers dont have this heh?

So then would FC give +1 I and S ?

That's what I would originally think... however one guy I talked to said only the +1A. Which I would be fine with if it were consistent. If Blood Claws get +2 instead of +1 fine, but why would not FC troops not get their bonuses? Because they are to different stats? - that is a bunk noise excuse if I've ever heard one.

As I say, I can kinda see both sides - although I am leaning to CA troops getting all their Assault bonuses as if they too have assulted. I think that is supposed to be the point, ya?

It could be argued either way, but the line "exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn" really pushes it toward full bonuses.

Personally we play full bonuses.

INAT FAQ rules that Blood Claws get +2 attacks.

The rules are not clear on this matter. The rulebook specifically states they get +1 attack, 'as if charging'. BCs get +2 attack on a charge. There is no mention of any other charge bonuses stacking in with defender reaction, so Furious Charge doesn't work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And in about 3 months, this won't matter.

QFT

Well... so far most of us seem to think more 'full bonuses', ya?

Interesting...

all models in the unit get the +1 assault bonus to their attacks, exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn

If Blood Claws had charged that turn, they would have had their +1 attack made into a +2 attack, so they keep that benefit.

Furious Charge doesn't come into play, because the extra attacks for charging are all that are treated as though the unit actually charged; strength and initiative don't enter into it. Not that I can think of any units with Furious Charge and Counter Attack off hand.

(Also, I don't know who "most" of us is. So far I count one for all bonuses and two against.)

Colonel Straken has a 12" bubble that gives furious charge and counter attack to everyone.

Oh, right!

It's certainly good to know for him then.

I was actually about to point that out about Colonel Straken. I think it would be interesting to have my buddy who plays orks assault my soon to be owned IG and have them get furious charge and counter attack to meet his orks. They would prob kick my butt at strength 3, but it would be funny to see his face as he always expects to strike last... BTW, the command bubbles, do those only affect the figures within the 12" bubble or do they only have to touch 1 to benifit the squad?

If you're not playing Kill Points, I'd recommend a sacrificial squad placed in front with a second and third squad ready to charge after the first one is taken down. With a flamer it'll be even better in that regard.

Orders are done on an officer-to-unit basis, so if any part of the unit is within the officer's range they're good.

As far as Straken's 'bubble' I'd say like most radius effects (it is effects, ya?) - as long as one model from the unit is within the range they get the bonus.

Now as far as whether they get both or not I'm thinking they should, especially if the precedent is that Wolves get +2A, that in itself is a bonus beyond the +1A.

Does anyone know if that ruling was just on this FAQ or has it been referenced anywhere else?

Oh, I thought he was talking about giving orders.

I guess for Straken's ability you can just see if it says "models within twelve inches" or "units within twelve inches".

As for getting FC with Counterattack, you don't get it:

all models in the unit get the +1 assault bonus to their attacks, exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn

There is nothing at all that would allow them to benefit from Furious Charge. You only count as having charged for the purposes of gaining the attack. Blood Claws have that bonus attack replaced with two.

(Also, it's "affects". "Effects" is the noun. )

Orkeosaurus wrote:Oh, I thought he was talking about giving orders.

I guess for Straken's ability you can just see if it says "models within twelve inches" or "units within twelve inches".

As for getting FC with Counterattack, you don't get it:

all models in the unit get the +1 assault bonus to their attacks, exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn

There is nothing at all that would allow them to benefit from Furious Charge. You only count as having charged for the purposes of gaining the attack. Blood Claws have that bonus attack replaced with two.

(Also, it's "affects". "Effects" is the noun. )

I could see it either giving just the +1A or giving all additional bonuses. But certainly not giving the +1A for everyone but Blood Claws who get the additional +1A (total 2). Just because their additional assault bonuses are on the same stat line or are in an older book their bonuses are under the unit entry and not under USRs in the rule book.

I guess that is what I'm hung up on - As I say, I can see it either way - but not half and half..

As for my atrocious spelling and grammar, thanks for the heads up. I always forget that crap...

Orkeosaurus wrote:

all models in the unit get the +1 assault bonus to their attacks, exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn

If Blood Claws had charged that turn, they would have had their +1 attack made into a +2 attack, so they keep that benefit.

Furious Charge doesn't come into play, because the extra attacks for charging are all that are treated as though the unit actually charged; strength and initiative don't enter into it. Not that I can think of any units with Furious Charge and Counter Attack off hand.

(Also, I don't know who "most" of us is. So far I count one for all bonuses and two against.)

I don't see what the confusion is here. Orkeosaurus has spelled it out pretty clearly for everyone.

So lets try to break it down a bit more.

The Counter-attack rule only specifies that the +1 attack bonus is the bonus that is applied "exactly as if they had assaulted that turn."

Therefor, no other bonuses for assaulting may be applied, so no furious charge.

However, the Blood Claws special rule is not furious charge. It specifically affects the number of attacks that the unit gets when they assault.

Therefore, since the bonus attack for counter-attack is "exactly as if they had assaulted" the Blood Claw's two bonus attacks for assaulting is used instead of just one.

willydstyle wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:

all models in the unit get the +1 assault bonus to their attacks, exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn

If Blood Claws had charged that turn, they would have had their +1 attack made into a +2 attack, so they keep that benefit.

Furious Charge doesn't come into play, because the extra attacks for charging are all that are treated as though the unit actually charged; strength and initiative don't enter into it. Not that I can think of any units with Furious Charge and Counter Attack off hand.

(Also, I don't know who "most" of us is. So far I count one for all bonuses and two against.)

I don't see what the confusion is here. Orkeosaurus has spelled it out pretty clearly for everyone.

So lets try to break it down a bit more.

The Counter-attack rule only specifies that the +1 attack bonus is the bonus that is applied "exactly as if they had assaulted that turn."

Therefor, no other bonuses for assaulting may be applied, so no furious charge.

However, the Blood Claws special rule is not furious charge. It specifically affects the number of attacks that the unit gets when they assault.

Therefore, since the bonus attack for counter-attack is "exactly as if they had assaulted" the Blood Claw's two bonus attacks for assaulting is used instead of just one.

Nope...
Sorry, as a guy who had to write / explain rules and give direct interpretations for a long time - that one holds no water. Either it is one way or t'other. Not a little of both.

But thanks for the input - if anyone has any other opinions or can explain why or how they got their particular interpretation of the rule please let me know. I'm curious who thinks what and why.
Thanks again-

Then you should be able to explain why it holds no water, rather than simply referring to yourself as a guy who knows.

Therefor, no other bonuses for assaulting may be applied, so no furious charge.

First of all you are saying no other bonuses period. Thus contradicting yourself. It does not say no other bonuses except for BC who get to add an additional bonus.

Many people add +1 or +2 to an ability for charging. BC add +2 to A, FC gives +1S and +1I. So why do BC get to add thier special rule but not others? Just because out of coincidence the +2 ability they have happens to coincide with the +1 attack bonus for counter attack. Unless BC rule says they even get it with coutner attack then your arguement does not stand. Either we all get full bonuses or not. I just ran into this for the first time playing with straken and My opponent and I said full bonuses for all.

You ask why Blood Claws benefit and Furious Charge doesn't but that question has been answered multiple times. Blood Claws benefit because their ability replaces the attack they get for charging. Furious Charge does not replace the bonus attack, it's a completely separate ability.

Is it weird? Yes. Is it inconsistent? Yes. It is what the rules say? Yes. It is what the rules say.

By the looks of things the Blood Claws don't get their special +2 bonus attacks for charging. The Counter-Attack rule specifies that it bestows a +1 bonus, "exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn."

The Counter-Attack rules does not say that they have assaulted that turn, that they count as assaulting that turn, or any similar construction. They get a +1 bonus attack and that's it.

I don't know that the Blood Claws getting two attacks is that iron-clad, to be honest, but you definitely don't get Furious Charge.


Didn't KMKhaine mention an FAQ ruling that Blood Claws got the attacks?

Orkeosaurus wrote:I don't know that the Blood Claws getting two attacks is that iron-clad, to be honest, but you definitely don't get Furious Charge.


Didn't KMKhaine mention an FAQ ruling that Blood Claws got the attacks?

Only in the Dakka FAQ - it isn't mentioned in the GW FAQ. My instincts say ya, you would get all bonuses 'as if the unit itself had assaulted'. Some units get more goodies when they assault - Blood Claws get an additional +1A, models with FC get an additional +1 to S&I, and I'm sure there must be something else that I can't think of off the top of my head.

The main point I was getting to is I'm sure it has to be either models get their assault bonuses as if they too had assaulted or they only get the +1. But then it is not 'as if they too have assaulted' because BC get +2A, FC units get +1 S,I&A etc...

As I said (a few times) it has got to be either one or the other, not a little of whatever sounds good at the time. Unfortunately GW has a discernible lack of 'experts' these days since not having real (GW) tournaments much anymore and the studio was gutted.

It certainly is not worth getting into an argument, I was just hoping for a few other opinions and ideas. I hope you understand where I am coming from, the answer is not BCs get their full bonuses and no one else does.

KMKhaine wrote:As I said (a few times) it has got to be either one or the other

Why? Seriously, you seem to have taken it has truth that it can't be one but not the other, and I don't understand why this is the case.

The rules for Counter Attack allow for a unit to gain +1 attack as if they charged. That's all the rules allow. There is no way, within the rules, for Furious Charge to work. The rationale behind Blood Claws getting +2 attacks instead of +1 is that if they would have charged, the +1 attack would have been +2 attacks; if he charged, Straken would get +S and I, but that doesn't matter because he only counts as charging for the purpose of gaining +1 attack. Yes, some units do get other bonuses when they charge, but Counter Attack only has them count as charging for the purpose of gaining +1 attack.

Now, with the Blood Claws I see a controversy. It seems to be a question of whether gaining "+1 attack exactly as if they charged" allows the "exactly if they charged" to override the "+1 attack". However, there is no way that it works for Furious Charge. If you truly think that there's no way one can have it while the other does not, the only option would be to believe that neither has it.

I think the "as if they had charged" is so that they interact with any Defensive Grenades the attacks may be using. Had it been "counts as", then rules depending on the condition of charging, like Furious Assault, would apply. For something to be "as if" another thing, they have to be different but with the same result.

The rule describes a unit getting +1A if it passes a Leadership test, not a unit that is charging. The results are the same, however: +1A, negated by Defensive Grenades.