SMS another argument waiting to happen.

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**Lordhat**

SMS do not need LOS to fire. Does this mean they can fire outside of their fire arc?

**frgsinwntr**

where does it define their fire arc?

**Lordhat**

Let's take the HH. It has a turret mounted Primary weapon system and a hull mounted Secondary weapon system. The SMS is therefor Hull mounted which means a fire arc of 45 degrees.

**Ridcully**

Its physical arc could potentially be 360 degrees, as we're not supposed to glue it. The burst cannon on the devilfish can physically move close to 180 degrees also. Isn't the hull mounted thing just a guide for weapons glued in place, for when we can't physically point and shoot?

I don't think i've ever shot at anything not right in front of the vehicle anyway though.

FAQ wrote:Q. On page 59, the rules for the arc of fire of
pintle-mounted (or bolt-on) weapons address
those mounted on turrets and those mounted
directly on the hull. But what about those
mounted on smaller structures (like a Rhino’s
cupola) that look like they can rotate 360º, even
though they aren’t proper turrets?
A. Remember that the rule is: if it looks like you
can point the gun at it, then you can, even if it’s
glued in place’. The rest is just a set of guidelines
about the arcs of fire of weapons glued in place,
and does not cover all possible weapons
mounting and vehicles. If the structure the gun is
pintle-mounted on is obviously capable of
rotating 360º, like in the case of a Rhino’s cupola,
then it should be treated as having a 360º arc of
fire. However, if you mount the same storm
bolter on a Razorback, even though it still can
rotate 360º, it won’t obviously be able to fire
through the Razorback’s main turret, and so it
will have a ‘blind spot’. In the same way, the
shuriken catapult mounted under the hull of a
Wave Serpent, Falcon, etc. looks like it can rotate
360º, but it does not look like it can be fired
through the main hull right behind it, so we
normally play that it can be fired roughly in the
180º to the vehicle’s front, which seems like an
acceptable compromise

**Lordhat**

Good enough, I'm usually pretty happy playing by the FAQ. However, I'd like to explore this further as an exercise. Let's go ahead and assume the SMS system CAN'T rotate. Does not needing LOS negate the fire arc?

**Ridcully**

I guess so. It does say it can engage any target within range, and doesn't need line of sight.

**nosferatu1001**

Fire Arc helps determine the LOS that the SMS doesn't need. I'd have thought that was pretty obvious....

**unistoo**

Hmmm... I don't see why they can't fire outside their arc - you can ignore LOS, so all you need to do is check the range, and I can't find anything about range being limited to within a firing arc. To shoot at someone you need to meet two separate conditions, that they are both in LOS (ignored) and in range (not ignored).

EDIT: For the Greater Grammar!

**don_mondo**

OK, so my Basilisk/Griffon/Colossus etc can fire to their rear or sides witout having to turn the vehicle? No, they can't, even without needing LOS they are still limited to the fire arc based upon the weapon mountings for their weapons.

**Hollismason**

Well it ignores LOS completely, which to me says it doesnt have a fire arc as that is a way of determining LOS to the weapon.

Although that is a little bit common sense and not RAW.

**unistoo**

don_mondo wrote:OK, so my Basilisk/Griffon/Colossus etc can fire to their rear or sides witout having to turn the vehicle? No, they can't, even without needing LOS they are still limited to the fire arc based upon the weapon mountings for their weapons.

That's a different rule, and may be worthy of another discussion, because an initial reading says only that they can fire at 'a target they cannot see' whereas the Tau 'dex says 'regardless of line of sight' so (again an initial reading) of the RAW could be argued that yes, barrage weapons can fire outside their arc. Am I wrong?

It would boil down to: Can a unit be 'in LOS' but 'can't be seen'? If yes, then no, barrage weapons still need a theoretical 'LOS' Either way, I still think the SMS can, since it works whether you have LOS or not.

(Keep in mind that we've already established that SMS are turret mounted, so this is a theoretical discussion)

**don_mondo**

IMO, the fire arc remains in effect. LOS is irrelevant and has nothing to do with which direction a gun can shoot. LOS only determines what the gun can actually see to shoot at within that fire arc, and Barrage and SMS negate that requirement.

**unistoo**

don_mondo wrote:IMO, the fire arc remains in effect. LOS is irrelevant and has nothing to do with which direction a gun can shoot. LOS only determines what the gun can actually see to shoot at within that fire arc, and Barrage and SMS negate that requirement.

Except that the only place I can find that mentioned is in the LOS rules, which are negated by the SMS ('regardless of LOS'), I'm curious as to the RAW here, not the 'common sense' - I know all about that

**don_mondo**

Does the SMS or Barrage anywhere state that the weapon's fire arc is negated? Not LOS, but Fire Arc.....?

**unistoo**

That's the problem, fire arcs are only referenced in the LOS rules as far as I can see, which are negated.

EDIT: also just noticed that they're only referred to as arcs-of-sight not arcs-of-fire

**Redemption**

Not following a strict rule, but I'd say it can fire without pointing at the target. The SMS description mentions the missile being able to go around any blocking terrain, so why wouldn't it be able to take a turn after being fired?

This in contrast to e.g. an artillery shell, which usually don't make controlled turns in mid-air.

**kirsanth**

This reminds me of an issue with Biovores in a building with limited fire arcs.

More reading.

**Redwunz**

A little off topic, but speaking of the IG Barrage weapons, where exactly are the fire arcs for these weapons found. I haven't exactly scoured the universe, but I haven't seen anywhere that indicates what sort of mount these artillery weapons have.

**DogOfWar**

I figured this would be straightforward but it actually opened up an interesting issue for IG barrage weapons. IMO fluffwise missiles can do snazzy 180s but shells cannot. This doesn't have any bearing on the rules, however, since IG artillery ignores LOS just as well as any SMS.

Reading the rules for LOS I noticed something that may or may not shed some light:

Pg.58 BRB - Vehicle Weapons and Line of Sight

"Just like infantry, vehicles need to be able to draw a line of sight to their targets in order to shoot at them. When firing a vehicle's weapons, point them against the target and then trace the line of sight from each weapons' mounting and along its barrel, to see if the shot is blocked by terrain or models."

Might be pedantic, but the text in cyan seems to be a rule independent of LOS rulings. You still have to point the weapons at the enemy, except when it says you must then check for LOS, you do not need to comply. The rule states that the vehicle does not need LOS to fire, not that it does not need to be pointed at the target.

Not sure if this helps, but for vehicle mounted, non-turret/hull/sponson/pintle weapons - Earthshakers, Medusas, etc - I would say that since you must point the weapon at the target, you must point the vehicle at the target. If it is any of the other categories, then you must still abide by the "point the weapon at the enemy" ruling, except that the vehicle itself may not need to turn in order to fulfill that requirement.

Doesn't really answer the OP's question since I don't know how SMS are mounted, but might provide insight to the IG issues.

DoW

**unistoo**

DogOfWar wrote:
Pg.58 BRB - Vehicle Weapons and Line of Sight

"Just like infantry, vehicles need to be able to draw a line of sight to their targets in order to shoot at them. When firing a vehicle's weapons, point them against the target and then trace the line of sight from each weapons' mounting and along its barrel, to see if the shot is blocked by terrain or models."

I does seem to address the barrage weapon issue, which is nice to know that it's covered somewhere. The SMS in this case are turret mounted (on the front of a vehicle in the drone spots, giving 360 degree rotation). However, the follow up question is 'what if you had a fixed SMS?' which is a theoretical argument.

**Kilkrazy**

I have modelled my SMS as vertical launch systems. That theoretically takes care of the fixed position argument.

**Purge the Heretic**

Seeker missles

I win

they do a loop de loop and find you... does this really require a debate?

**Ridcully**

We're not talking about seeker missiles. Most people already realize seeker missiles can be used in the shooting phase to strike basically anything, anytime, anywhere. They get no mention of a vehicle mounting, nor do they have a fire arc.

So no, you don't win. Sorry :(

**mrdabba**

Wy is this still being argued.

Here is a picture of the Devilfish

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat170004&prodId=prod1090202

The sms would be were the drones would be...they each have almost a 360 degree rotation. You can measure from either one of them for determining range. This gives the devilfish a 360 field of view/Fire Arc regardless of LOS or Not.

That should pretty much be all you need to answer the question.

**Hollismason**

Actually what would happen is.

I fire my SMS at this squad behind me, check firing arc and range its out of my fire arc which makes it out of my LOS, but this special rule allows me to fire at targets out of my LOS so I fire at them.

I am pretty sure that i how it works. Regardless whether the target is out of its fire arc it ignores the check for LOS from the fire arc.

**Regwon**

Hollismason wrote:Actually what would happen is.

I fire my SMS at this squad behind me, check firing arc and range its out of my fire arc which makes it out of my LOS, but this special rule allows me to fire at targets out of my LOS so I fire at them.

I am pretty sure that i how it works. Regardless whether the target is out of its fire arc it ignores the check for LOS from the fire arc.

You have to be able to psyically point the weapon at what you are going to shoot. You do this before you check LoS. If you cant point the weapon at it, it doesnt make it out of LoS, you cant shoot at it because its not in your firing arc.

SMS ignore the rules for checking LoS, i.e. if there is terrain and intervening models in the way, but not for arcs of fire.

You have to be able to point the gun at what you want to shoot. This is easy for SMS because there have a big arc of fire.

For fixed weapons arcs of fire are determined by the rulebook. As such a basilisk or other IG artillery can fire 45 degrees to the front.

**unistoo**

Arcs-of-sight are part of the LOS rules, which are ignored. "Point the weapon at the target" so, if you cannot, the only thing that happens is you don't have LOS, which is fine, because SMS work "regardless of LOS".

In other words, the first thing you do in the when shooting, is declare a target, which is defined as a unit to which you have LOS, (BRB pg 16), and that is within the range of your weapon (BRB pg 17). SMS ignores this first requirement, so only the second holds. The fact that you use a weapon's mounting (45 degrees if hull-mounted) instead of the 'eyes of the model' is irrelevant, you do not need LOS, so all you need is for the target to be in range.

I can't find anywhere that says "a weapon's effects can only occur within it's arc-of sight" - the closest mention is that these weapons can 'fire within this arc' (BRB Pg 59) which is descriptive in this context as referring to LOS (it being in the Vehicle Weapons and Line of Sight section) - it is not the same as saying 'can only affect targets within this arc'. I imagine that a hull mounted SMS does indeed fire through it's arc, after which the projectile promptly does a 180

@Killkrazy: Oh no, look's like you're limited to a 45 degree arc straight up!