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What happens when fortune is cast on a unit, and that unit splits in the movement phase?

Say 2 Eldar ICs and an infantry unit start the turn in coherency, fortune is then cast on the collective unit, during the movement phase, IC number 1 leaves and gets into a transport, IC 2 (the caster of the fortune) splits off and joins another unit, and the unit itself moves in a 3rd direction.

Who has fortune now?

You still name a unit IIRC. So if the unit is dire avengers with two farseers, you cast it upon one of the three. Whatever is left if you move something away, still has fortune. Cast it on the avengers and the farseers get it as long as they are part of the unit, if they leave they lose it.

So to clarify, your example is off at "cast on the collective unit." You don't do that.

The way i play it. When the IC count as part of the unit they get the re rolls as the unit gets re rolls. If they leave they are no longer part of the unit so no re rolls. It gets a little more tricky if you cast on to the IC. My view is if he's no longer on his own any effects are lost.

... but there's no set in stone way to play this

The way I've usually seen it played, if you cast it on a squad of Dire Avengers with an Autarch in it, the Dire Avengers unit is the one that's fortuned; any Independent Characters only benefit if they are a part of the Dire Avengers unit.

Independent Characters are joined to units; there seems to be the implication that the unit being joined is the unit that the IC is now a part of.

I think GW made it quite clear in the faq or some place, that everyone in the squad gets the boost.

GMMStudios wrote:You still name a unit IIRC. So if the unit is dire avengers with two farseers, you cast it upon one of the three. Whatever is left if you move something away, still has fortune. Cast it on the avengers and the farseers get it as long as they are part of the unit, if they leave they lose it.

So to clarify, your example is off at "cast on the collective unit." You don't do that.

That makes the most sense, I think that is reasonable. I have no idea what the intent was. I'd probably play it that way.

I had a further concern, which did complicate the issue though, an IC is still a unit right? or is it?

Would an IC ALREADY joined to a unit at the start of the turn even be a valid target for the casting of fortune, if say, you wanted the character to get the rerolls and move away during the turn? Or is he a part of "the unit" at the start of the turn, and that's immpossible? As he technically isn't a unit if joined?

I don't think you can target an IC in the unit with a psychic power, because as long as he has joined the unit, he is not considered to be a separate, targetable, entity except in CC. The rules are fairly murky, however.

Cocaloch wrote:I think GW made it quite clear in the faq or some place, that everyone in the squad gets the boost.

Hmm. I've read over the current Eldar and main rulebook FAQs, it's not mentioned.

However, I don't think anyone is saying that the IC don't benefit while part of the fortuned unit; just that they don't benefit when broken off again.



Also, I'm pretty sure Willydstyle is right about targeting the unit; otherwise I could snipe ICs with a warphead or sorceror or whatever.

Most likely it's just the unit that it was cast on, but we typically just say that everyone that was there gets the reroll, same as guide. If they seperate they keep it but if they join another unit it doesn't transfer to the unit joined, just the IC in that unit.


I don't find myself removing my ICs from units much though

I would say majority since an IC "becomes" part of the unit. At the same time even though he is in a unit I think he can be targetted by friendly psychic powers. However again I would say majority rule and Dire Avengers would not get fortune by being joined by a fortuned IC. It would work like slowest movement and whatnot.

Orkeosaurus is correct: The power is cast on the unit of Dire Avengers that the Independent Character has joined. The Independent Character benefits so long as he remains with the unit.

Right, good discussion lads, thanks for the inputs!

One point I am still fuzzy on, say an IC was attached to a unit at the start of the Eldar turn. Could he be targeted for fortune individually or not?

So he could say, separate off in the movement phase, and then go charge a dreadnought alone in the assault phase?

I have played it that way before, buy saying as much, as I think the IC is still a unit, albiet a joined one, but I don't know if that is technically correct.

Augustus wrote:Right, good discussion lads, thanks for the inputs!

One point I am still fuzzy on, say an IC was attached to a unit at the start of the Eldar turn. Could he be targeted for fortune individually not?

So he could say, separate off in the movement phase, and then go charge a dreadnought alone in the assault phase?

I have played it that way before, buy saying as much, as I think the IC is still a unit, albiet a joined one, but I don't know if that is technically correct.

The definition of "unit" in the rulebook is so fuzzy that I think there is some ambiguity here, however, I think that the solution which follows the rules the closest is that you cannot target the IC, since on page 49 it says "Independent characters that have joined a unit are considered part of that unit and so may not be picked out as targets." Although this is in the "shooting at independent characters" section, it could also be considered broad enough to take into account non-shooting targeting effects.

No, the Independent Character could not be targeted separately, because he'd be a part of the unit at that point.

Yes that was my fear as well. That's a significantly limiting issue for fortune.

I agree that the joined IC's get the benefit while joined with the target unit. What happens when the IC becomes solo involuntarily (through deaths)? So, if a squad of 5 DA's + Farseer have fortune and the 5 DA's die, does the Farseer retain it?

Homer

I think if an IC is part of the unit when it is cast he will have the re-roll till your next turn. I would assume an IC that joined the unit would not get the re-roll since it was not part of the unit at the time.

Homer S wrote:I agree that the joined IC's get the benefit while joined with the target unit. What happens when the IC becomes solo involuntarily (through deaths)? So, if a squad of 5 DA's + Farseer have fortune and the 5 DA's die, does the Farseer retain it?

Homer

Cocaloch wrote:I think if an IC is part of the unit when it is cast he will have the re-roll till your next turn. I would assume an IC that joined the unit would not get the re-roll since it was not part of the unit at the time.

Since the IC was not targetable, and the unit is what the power is cast on, if the IC leaves the unit, he loses the power, as he is no longer part of the target unit, and also, if a new IC joins the unit, then he gains the re-roll, because he is now part of the target unit. If all of the dire avengers die, then the targeted unit no longer exists, so the IC would not have the re-roll.

Homer S wrote:I agree that the joined IC's get the benefit while joined with the target unit. What happens when the IC becomes solo involuntarily (through deaths)? So, if a squad of 5 DA's + Farseer have fortune and the 5 DA's die, does the Farseer retain it?

Homer

I should think he would still have it, after all he is the surviving member of that unit. My basis for that is the morale rules for CC, and the character rules that say splitting and joining is only in the movement phase. IF the DA's die to fire or melee, and the IC is the only survivor he is still a member of the same unit. That's pretty clear.

EDIT:

willydstyle wrote:If all of the dire avengers die, then the targeted unit no longer exists, so the IC would not have the re-roll.

I'm with everything you described wildstyle, except that, joining and leaving units only happens in the movement phase. I don't think the last bit is correct.

Augustus wrote:

Homer S wrote:I agree that the joined IC's get the benefit while joined with the target unit. What happens when the IC becomes solo involuntarily (through deaths)? So, if a squad of 5 DA's + Farseer have fortune and the 5 DA's die, does the Farseer retain it?

Homer

I should think he would still have it, after all he is the surviving member of that unit. My basis for that is the morale rules for CC, and the character rules that say splitting and joining is only in the movement phase. IF the DA's die to fire or melee, and the IC is the only survivor he is still a member of the same unit. That's pretty clear.

EDIT:

willydstyle wrote:If all of the dire avengers die, then the targeted unit no longer exists, so the IC would not have the re-roll.

I'm with everything you described wildstyle, except that, joining and leaving units only happens in the movement phase. I don't think the last bit is correct.

That's a very good point... since the IC is still considered part of the unit for making morale checks, then I'd have to agree with you. Like I said earlier, the rules here are pretty murky

He'd might as well keep it.

The guy's down on his luck enough as it is.

Orkeosaurus wrote:He'd might as well keep it.

The guy's down on his luck enough as it is.

Best answer in the thread

Perhaps wearing a magic dress to battle is a bad idea...

Eldar crack me up sometimes.

Shhh... Eldar are dark and goth and spooky... it's not a dress, it's a robe (though not of the bath variety).

I thought that when you cast a Psychic Power on a unit with an IC, and the IC leaves, you choose who retains the power. If the IC's squad dies off, I'm pretty sure, as the IC was the last man in the unit, he could still benefit from the power.


Still, I could be wrong. I don't play Eldar.

Cryonicleech wrote:I thought that when you cast a Psychic Power on a unit with an IC, and the IC leaves, you choose who retains the power. If the IC's squad dies off, I'm pretty sure, as the IC was the last man in the unit, he could still benefit from the power.


Still, I could be wrong. I don't play Eldar.

That's WHFB rules.

Ahhh see then.

I'm too used to WHFB...damn..

willydstyle wrote:Shhh... Eldar are dark and goth and spooky... it's not a dress, it's a robe (though not of the bath variety).

They meet up with the Dark Angels to reaffirm that.

"Hey, Interregator-Chaplian Ezekarius, nice robe you're wearing there!"

"Ah, Farseer Yasuryal, I see you are also wearing a robe, which is a completely different article of clothing from a dress!"

"Yes I am! We're both wearing robes and not dresses, because we're deep and brooding and mystical."

"Our dads were wrong about us!"

I don't have the rules in front of me...but I do recall with abilities (unit abilities, character abilities), the rulebook fairly clearly spells out how they are handled. I think I'd probably treat psyker powers in the same way.

It's basically what's outlined here--if model has ability and joins unit, he loses ability...if unit has ability and IC joins unit, he gains ability...if he later leaves unit, he loses ability...Someone with rulebook in front of them can probably check this out.

You're thinking of special rules. Fearless, for example, is lost by an Independent Character if he joins a unit without Fearless, but gained (or not lost) by an Independent Character if he joins a unit with Fearless.