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Hello Dakka!
I'm thinking about purchasing a squad of assault marines for deep-striking. Their flaw is, obviously, that they can't assault after deepstriking. Therefore I thought: How can I protect them, while they soak up enemy fire next opponents turn? And I came up with a jump-pack librarian with psi shield for that nice 5+ invulnerable. My question is now: The codex states that the librarian uses this power at the beginning of his movement phase. The deep-strike rules now state that units arriving via deep-strike can't move further in their movement phase.

In my opinion, it is not clear if this is allowed by the rules. I would try and argue in favor of activating the psi-shield; let me explain.

It is clear, that, although they can't move in it, the deep-striking team has a movement phase. They are also allowed to disembark from a vehicle, which could indicate that they are not completely unable to do something. Furthermore, It is stated that the librarian uses his power at the beginning of his movement phase; it is in my opinion not fully clear if his movement phase begins after deep-striking, before deep-striking or something else. If the beginning would be before deep-striking, it is difficult to argue that the psi-shield could be activated, although not completely unthinkable, because there seems to be no rule that prohibits the librarian from using a power, although he is not on the board at the moment of using it. I understand that this is not a strong argument, I just wanted to state it for the record.

From a RAI point of view, I don't see anything that would prohibit from using a psychic power in-flight. Those Space Marines are tough guys, and librarians even tougher, so I guess he can bring up some concentration even when the ground is coming rapidly closer. If they would deep-strike via teleportation through the warp, this might look different. (Althought that is an occasion where a psi shield might be really in order to fight off the daemons trying to devour those who are dumb enough to teleport through their realm...)

Furthermore, the only in-game difference between using psi shield at the beginning or at the end of a movement phase would be a possible invulnerable save against dangerous terrain tests. That seems to be the only reason why it is "casted" so early on a player's turn.
...wait. This would be damn useful if you could psi shield deep-striking units that want to land in dangerous terrain. I didn't think of that until now and this changes the balance of power of this psychic ability a bit, IF it is allowed to be cast before/while deep-striking. This gets interesting.

I'd be happy if you would help me discuss this matter.

You can cast the power, you arrive at the start of the phase and are not allowed to move further. That's it.

I guess following your statement, invulnerable saves against possible dangerous terrain tests due to landing in difficult/dangerous terrain would not be in order? Because this test happens before the "real" beginning of their movement phase?

Um. . .I could be wrong, but I thought that you did not receive an INV save vs dangerous terrain. Like I said I'm not sure, but you might take a browse through the BGB.

I did prior to posting the OP and it only says that armor and cover saves are forbidden. Invulnerability saves are therefore an exception, as far as I can see it.

Ah. Well then you have a valid and interesting question.
I would tend to think that you would use the power after landing as generally, models not on the board can't use effects or special rules unless specified by their rules.

Yeah, I guess that is a nice balance. You still have to be careful around difficult terrain, but hopefully can shrug off some krak missiles or plasma fire.

Well, now I need only to buy and make a librarian with jump pack. GW has FIVE of those guys, and noone has a jump pack on him!

Nope, can't do it. Power has to be cast at the beginning of his movement phase, right? Where is the Librarian at the beginning of his movement phase, ie BEFORE he moves/deep strikes? Off the table, right? Somehow, I don't think there are any rules that allow a model off the table to cast a power. This is the same as an Eldar Farseer being unable to cast Fortune and such on the turn it comes in from Reserves.

I see your point, but I also think that this point is debatable. The movement phase of this unit really begins after you rolled for reserves and placed them onto the table, after throwing scatter dice and so on. After this, it is the units first opportunity to actually do something and this could be considered the begin of its movement phase. Just an idea.

What's to debate? The movement phase begins when you start rolling for reserves. Page 94, main rules:
"At the start of each of his Movement phases except the first, before moving any unit, the player must roll a dice for each of his units in reserve."

There is nothing before the movement phase and rolling for reserves is the first required action (if you have any reserves) in the movement phase. Once you start rolling for reserves, you have started your movement phase and at that point it is too late for the Librarian to cast the power.
Bottom line, at the beginning of his movement phase, the librarian is not on the table. You cannot cast a power when not on the table unless the rules for that power explicitly state that you can (and I can't think of any that do allow it). By the time the librarian is on the table (ie after deep strike), it's too late. I don't see anything to debate there.

Witzkatz wrote:I see your point, but I also think that this point is debatable. The movement phase of this unit really begins after you rolled for reserves and placed them onto the table, after throwing scatter dice and so on. After this, it is the units first opportunity to actually do something and this could be considered the begin of its movement phase. Just an idea.

I think that this interpretation is incorrect, and I'll cite deep striking vehicles as my reason for thinking so.

When a vehicle deep strikes(such as a Drop Pod or Land Speeder), it is counted as having moved 12" in the movement phase. This would lead you to believe that the act of deep striking is your movement.

Following this logic, the librarian would have to cast the power before moving, but would be unable to since it would not yet be on the table. It would be disqualified for doing so because the act of deep striking is the same as having moved.

I see your arguments and, yes, I guess my interpretation might be flawed. So, no psi shielding for assault marines, alright. Thanks for the discussion on that point.

Another somewhat related question, though: Assault marines deep-strike with their jump packs. A chaplain in terminator armour would deep-strike with his in-built teleporter. However, as far as I can see it, there's nothing that prohibits me from making my terminator chaplain join my assault marines in reserve and then deep-strike together, right? Both simply have the deep strike rule, although they work differently from a fluff point of view.

Would look cool, though. Five superhumans thundering out of the sky, and on the earth-shattering moment of impact, another power-armoured giant, even bigger and with a skull for a face, appears in a blinding flash of light...

"Purge them, in the name of the god-emperor!"




Postscriptum: Having a terminator join a jump-pack squad would, of course, be rather dumb. But I like the mental picture.

Witzkatz wrote:I see your arguments and, yes, I guess my interpretation might be flawed. So, no psi shielding for assault marines, alright. Thanks for the discussion on that point.

Another somewhat related question, though: Assault marines deep-strike with their jump packs. A chaplain in terminator armour would deep-strike with his in-built teleporter. However, as far as I can see it, there's nothing that prohibits me from making my terminator chaplain join my assault marines in reserve and then deep-strike together, right? Both simply have the deep strike rule, although they work differently from a fluff point of view.

Would look cool, though. Five superhumans thundering out of the sky, and on the earth-shattering moment of impact, another power-armoured giant, even bigger and with a skull for a face, appears in a blinding flash of light...

"Purge them, in the name of the god-emperor!"




Postscriptum: Having a terminator join a jump-pack squad would, of course, be rather dumb. But I like the mental picture.

No problem!

I can't think of anything that would prevent you from doing this, other than common sense.

That is a cool mental image. I'm still a big fan of the scout bikers with a teleport homer.
"Hey, look at those silly little bikers coming right towards us. We'll tear them apart." ZZZZZZplorp!!
"Holy S*** who are those very angry looking huge guys that just appeared in a bright flash? Ack!"

Or something like that. And yes ZZZZZZplorp is the official (unofficial) sound of teleporting Termies.

ZZZZZZplorp, eh?

I usually imagne FZZZZZkrak*Bass drum sound*.

Maybe a combination?

ZZZZZZZKrak*Bassplorp sound*!

I like ZZZZZZplorp!! because it really throws the enemy off. They hear the wussy little sound and are totally not worried, then the next thing they know they're getting their faces torn off. Serves 'em right. Now they're all running around looking for their faces.