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In a Codex: Chaos Daemons army (not Codex: Chaos Space Marines), does a Spawn created by the Boon of Mutation power count for Kill Points?

Page numbers with your answers, if you please.

xtapl wrote:In a Codex: Chaos Daemons army (not Codex: Chaos Space Marines), does a Spawn created by the Boon of Mutation power count for Kill Points?

Page numbers with your answers, if you please.

Basic test: is it a unit? If yes, it is a kill point.

Spawn are definitely "a unit" ("under the Daemon player's control" - p. 73).

You're not going to find a reference that says "Spawn created via Boon of Mutation count as Kill Points in Annihilation missions," though. Kill Points are succinctly defined on p. 91 as being 1 per enemy unit destroyed.

Do you have some reason to suspect otherwise?

Because Codex: Chaos Daemons specifically says exactly how to treat a Spawn, and it's not via Kill Points.

Much like a Daemonhunters' force weapon still instakills Eternal Warriors.

I'm judging a tournament tomorrow, and I know for a fact this one will come up. And I'm leaning toward siding with the Daemon player. (Plus, I'm a budding Daemon player myself, and it's a good thing to know.)

xtapl wrote:Because Codex: Chaos Daemons specifically says exactly how to treat a Spawn, and it's not via Kill Points.

Much like a Daemonhunters' force weapon still instakills Eternal Warriors.

I'm judging a tournament tomorrow, and I know for a fact this one will come up. And I'm leaning toward siding with the Daemon player. (Plus, I'm a budding Daemon player myself, and it's a good thing to know.)

Sorry but it makes a unit and a unit is a kill point. Don't like that? Then don't choose to make a spawn it is OPTIONAL.

I don't have a Daemons codex yet, Could somebody post the rule in question for clarity's sake?

Lordhat wrote:I don't have a Daemons codex yet, Could somebody post the rule in question for clarity's sake?

Pretty please?

It's 3 paragraphs long so I'll simplify it to the key parts ....

Pick model (no LOS need), roll to hit. If hit and within 6" take a toughness test. If failed model is removed as casualty no saves allowed.

If player using this gift has a chaos spawn model available, he may replace the victim with a spawn.

Tri wrote:It's 3 paragraphs long so I'll simplify it to the key parts ....

Pick model (no LOS need), roll to hit. If hit and within 6" take a toughness test. If failed model is removed as casualty no saves allowed.

If player using this gift has a chaos spawn model available, he may replace the victim with a spawn.

If that's how it reads, I don't see how it could not be a KP.

RustyKnight wrote:

Tri wrote:It's 3 paragraphs long so I'll simplify it to the key parts ....

Pick model (no LOS need), roll to hit. If hit and within 6" take a toughness test. If failed model is removed as casualty no saves allowed.

If player using this gift has a chaos spawn model available, he may replace the victim with a spawn.

If that's how it reads, I don't see how it could not be a KP.

It's even clearer - it says that the Spawn is a unit under the daemon player's control.

Is it a unit? Yes - the description says so.

Seriously - where is there any debate?

For me, as a judge, the debate is the last sentence in the rules entry, which has been coveniently omitted above.

The rule in question is written as follows (with irrelevant information removed):

"If a hit is scored and the target is found to be within 6" of the Daemon, the target must immediately take a Toughness test. If the test is failed, the target is transformed ... and is removed as a casualty. Note that as no wounds are taken, no saves apply. Models without a Toughness ... cannot be affected.

If the player using this Gift has a Chaos Spawn model ... he may replace the victim with a Spawn ... The spawn is not a Daemon, but is a normal unit under the control of the player that used the gift ... the new Spawn may do nothing for the rest of the turn when it is created. If killed, it is worth 40 victory points."

Were it not for that last sentence, I would side with the above posters. That last sentence makes me side with the Daemon player. A Spawn is worth victory points, not kill points, and since there are no victory points any more, it's worth nothing. I again point to the issue of Daemonhunters and Force Weapons, and precedent in rulings on codexes that predate 5th edition.

I've heard nothing that makes me change that ruling so far.

That bit about victory points does not affect the fact that the spawn is still a unit and therefore still a KP. The rule doesn't say that regardless of mission type, a Chaos Spawn is only ecver worth 40 Victory Points and may never count for any other type of point.

If you cant get something simple like this through your head, I dont think you understand the rules well enough to be judging a tournament.

Its a kill point. And seeing as how Spawn suck, its a completely wasted kill point.

RustyKnight wrote:That bit about victory points does not affect the fact that the spawn is still a unit and therefore still a KP. The rule doesn't say that regardless of mission type, a Chaos Spawn is only ecver worth 40 Victory Points and may never count for any other type of point.

This.

It fits the criteria for being worth a KP, so it is because it does not give an exception making it not worth one. It is also worth 40 VP in the event of using VP to determine a winner if the scenario scoring results in a tie.

xtapl wrote:I've heard nothing that makes me change that ruling so far.

Except for nothing in the codex that states that it's not worth a kill point. Just because it states it's victory point total would not preclude from it not counting as a kill point. If the rule stated "it's worth 40 victory points but no kill points." you would have an argument.

Other than that, it's pretty obvious it's worth a kill point.

As a tournament judge, it would be a good idea for you to familiarize yourself with the "break no rule" concept. In this case you have 2 rules: one says that any unit is worth a kill point, the other rule says that the spawn is worth 40 victory points. So, you ask yourself,"Is there a way to follow both of these rules?" In this case, it's pretty simple, if you make the spawn worth 1 KP, you have not overridden the rules in the spawn entry in any way and you've complied with the BRB on KPs. But, if you say they are not worth a KP, you have broken the BRB rule without a more specific rule that actually conflicts with it in any way.

The example of force weapons that you keep bringing up is in no way related. In that case, you have a rule that says a model is immune to instant death, and you have a weapon that doesn't cause instant death. There isn't even an imagined rules conflict, it's just a loophole created by changing editions.

Thanks, Night Lords. Here I forgot I was just some bum off the street. I'll just take my 12 years of 40k experience and cry myself to sleep now. There always has to be one, huh? As a friend of mine is fond of saying, kiss my trophies, yo.


Anyway, thanks for the help, guys. It is vastly easier to discuss and come to a decision with strangers in this controlled environment than it is when you have two angry gamers that you have to see every week standing in front of you. I'm not totally convinced, but I'm willing to bow to weight of numbers.

(It is worth noting that this fight has been raging between these two guys for a couple of weeks now, and I just -know- they're going to end up playing each other in the finals, wherein I will get to hear the argument all over again for the 50th time. At least I can put an end to it, once and for all.

It is also worth noting that Kill Points were the DumbestIdeaEver(tm), and next tournament, I am writing all of the scenarios to use Victory Points instead.)

xtapl wrote:It is also worth noting that Kill Points were the DumbestIdeaEver(tm), and next tournament, I am writing all of the scenarios to use Victory Points instead.)

A very good idea.

I personally like kill points, you just have to set up some rules on how to use them, rather than GW's rediculous 3 grotz=10 MANZ equation. I liked a lot of what they did with the 'ard boyz scenario. DT's=1kp troops=1kp fast attack/elite/heavy support=2kp hq=5. Maybe just throw in something about units created in game(rather than something on your army list)=0kp.

xtapl wrote:Thanks, Night Lords. Here I forgot I was just some bum off the street. I'll just take my 12 years of 40k experience and cry myself to sleep now. There always has to be one, huh? As a friend of mine is fond of saying, kiss my trophies, yo.

Oh no, an over exaggerating reply and insult on the internet, whatever will I do *rolls eyes*.

I dont care how many years of experience you have, if you have poor rule comprehension skills, I dont think you should be judging a tournament. By doing so youre affecting other players and can completely change the outcome and experience/fun.

This was not intended as a flame but simply an observation, and youve made this out to be more than it is.

Look Xtapl KP are now part of the game by removing them you over power people like Space Marines. Its like if while I was running an event I went .... Rending getting a D3 is wrong I'm bumping it back up to a D6. Sound ok in principal but in practice any one with assault cannons, harlequins, snipers, (so on so forth) getting a massive unfair advantage.

I to dream of the time before kill points but we must move on and play with the rules we've been given

Tri wrote:Look Xtapl KP are now part of the game by removing them you over power people like Space Marines.

I don't think I've heard anyone say that removing/adjusting kill points overpowers Space Marines. I'm not sure I follow the logic here.

xtapl wrote:I've heard nothing that makes me change that ruling so far.

Hey xt, long time no see.

Anyway, I'd say the spawn gives a kill point on death in RAW strictly interpreted. The allocation of KPs doesn't check any "worth" of the units destroyed, just whether they are of the type to qualify for KP awards at the end of the game. So the player killing the spawn is awarded 40 VPs when the spawn dies, and then 1 KP for it at the end of the game. The operant text in the Daemon codex doesn't disqualify any other type of scoring calculation, just states its worth in victory points.

If it used the word "only" or some other construct which would preclude other types of scoring calculations, it would be different, but as written, "worth" is a 4e concept with no bearing on 5e. KPs aren't awarded based on "worth", they're awarded based on units the player destroyed irrelevant of attributes of the units in question.

Kirbinator wrote:

Tri wrote:Look Xtapl KP are now part of the game by removing them you over power people like Space Marines.

I don't think I've heard anyone say that removing/adjusting kill points overpowers Space Marines. I'm not sure I follow the logic here.

KP are part of the rules you take them into account when building a list.

Lets Look at SM with VP rather then KP. They will be spamming razor backs with heavy bolters( 40pts for a heavy bolter on a tank? yes please). oh oh you destroyed one? have 40 VPts I don't mind i have more. Oh that one you kill gives you no VP it came free from the Assault marines.

Lets look at IG with VP rather then KPs. You know lets not bother taking tanks they're easy VP lets just take more infantry units they'll never kill enough of us. Now all we need to do is take out the LR and he'll never win.

Sorry but if you remove kill points from 40k you change how the game is played dramatically. I have nothing but hate for KP but they're part of the rules you can't just ignore them because you don't like them

You can even look at simpler examples of the removal of KPs giving advantages. Splitting a unit of mahrens into to combat squads gives obvious tactical advantages at the risk of giving your opponent 2 KPs as opposed to one, if you take away KPs, they get the tactical advantages without any downside whatsoever.

imweasel wrote:

xtapl wrote:It is also worth noting that Kill Points were the DumbestIdeaEver(tm), and next tournament, I am writing all of the scenarios to use Victory Points instead.)

A very good idea.

Double QFT

oh and it's worth a Kill Point.

Heck, the 40 VP clause actually supports that it's worth a KP. If it was worth VPs in 4th, then it only stands to reason that it's worth KPs in 5th.

How about we look at it this way if you spawn an enemy Hq you get a kp. But if he kills the same spawn that was an hq you dont get a kp ? to me that just doesnt sound right. Really its the same as tunderfire cannon (2kp for one unit) , sporemines ect. It sucks but untill they faq it you just have to deal with it.

Tri wrote:

Kirbinator wrote:

Tri wrote:Look Xtapl KP are now part of the game by removing them you over power people like Space Marines.

I don't think I've heard anyone say that removing/adjusting kill points overpowers Space Marines. I'm not sure I follow the logic here.

KP are part of the rules you take them into account when building a list.

Lets Look at SM with VP rather then KP. They will be spamming razor backs with heavy bolters( 40pts for a heavy bolter on a tank? yes please). oh oh you destroyed one? have 40 VPts I don't mind i have more. Oh that one you kill gives you no VP it came free from the Assault marines.

Lets look at IG with VP rather then KPs. You know lets not bother taking tanks they're easy VP lets just take more infantry units they'll never kill enough of us. Now all we need to do is take out the LR and he'll never win.

Sorry but if you remove kill points from 40k you change how the game is played dramatically. I have nothing but hate for KP but they're part of the rules you can't just ignore them because you don't like them

I wouldn't say that spamming razorbacks is such a fantastic tactic (and assault squads only get rhinos.)

Yes, it will change army composition significantly. Why is that a problem?


To return to the OP's question - the spawn is worth a kill point. However, putting the spawn model down is optional. Unless it's going to be really useful (contesting an objective late in the game, etc) then don't put it down.

I think the point has been made, but in further support of the "Spawn is worth a KP camp", the round 2 scenario at 'Ard Boyz "Head hunters" specifically stated the units created during the game (chaos spawn was one of the listed examples)would not count as KP for that mission only. Seems to me that they only reason to make this special distinction is that they would otherwise count as a KP.