Recasting; the Great Debate

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Cheese Elemental**

After the flaming shenanigans that was the 'Confessions of a recaster' thread, I became curious as to what most people think of it. Yes, it's illegal and I'd prefer to buy things for the sake of being a good citizen, but sometimes it's just practical or necessary. I mean, does GW seriously expect me to buy three metal IG Special Weapon blisters to make a squad of melta-vets? And where am I supposed to get fresh, unpainted RT era minis?

And some people say that recasting anything is cheating GW. Don't you think we pay enough already for their products?

I'd only recast small things like special weapons, certain bitz, or old OOP minis. What's your view? I didn't follow the last thread too well.

**LunaHound**

Cheese Elemental wrote:

Don't you think we pay enough already for their products?

I didn't follow the last thread too well.

Whether you pay enough or not have nothing to do with whether you should recast or not. Dont like it been expensive? dont play.

Didnt follow the thread too well? go back and re-read it all.

**Neconilis**

Yes, reread it, and please close this thread now.

**rubiksnoob**

You said it's illegal in your post so you acknowledge that you should not do it yet you are going to do it anyway. hmmmm. . .

Automatically Appended Next Post:

**Cheese Elemental**

So, you expect me to buy an entire box or blister for a couple of the bitz inside?

Not everyone can afford that, Luna. If GW isn't providing what players need, I see no problems with recasting for personal use. I am, however, totally against selling re-casts.

For example, I have one Dark Elf Warrior with a sword. I'd like all of them to have swords, but there's only one in the box. What, pray tell, is wrong with recasting a bit for all of them? If I take 20-man blocks and I want them to have swords, why should I have to buy 20 boxes for one regiment?

**LunaHound**

Cheese Elemental wrote:So, you expect me to buy an entire box or blister for a couple of the bitz inside?

Not everyone can afford that, Luna. If GW isn't providing what players need, I see no problems with recasting for personal use. I am, however, totally against selling re-casts.

For example, I have one Dark Elf Warrior with a sword. I'd like all of them to have swords, but there's only one in the box. What, pray tell, is wrong with recasting a bit for all of them? If I take 20-man blocks and I want them to have swords, why should I have to buy 20 boxes for one regiment?

Its not matter of been able to afford something or not.

You want to recast swords? make them out of plasti cards , recast them all you want , even sell it.

I dont even believe "recasting is ok for personal use" because it falls under " no one else but me knows . no tell = all ok"

Search that plastic Steel legion guy's thread , he is on the right path .

The bottom line is , warhammer is a hobby, not a necessity . You want to do the petty things and recast? go for it. Just dont expect people to look at you any different than a petty thief.

**Cheese Elemental**

Thing is, recasting would be a lot easier than manually sculpting them out of plasticard or greenstuff. And recasting is expensive. You have to pay for the resin, tools, and the silicone mold yourself, and what's the value of a few bitz anyway? A couple of cents?

**Janthkin**

Cheese Elemental wrote:So, you expect me to buy an entire box or blister for a couple of the bitz inside?

Not everyone can afford that, Luna. If GW isn't providing what players need, I see no problems with recasting for personal use. I am, however, totally against selling re-casts.

For example, I have one Dark Elf Warrior with a sword. I'd like all of them to have swords, but there's only one in the box. What, pray tell, is wrong with recasting a bit for all of them? If I take 20-man blocks and I want them to have swords, why should I have to buy 20 boxes for one regiment?

If you can't afford it, don't play. It's really that simple. You aren't entitled to Dark Elf Warriors with swords; GW doesn't have any obligation to you to give you as many melta guns as you could use.

There are bitz services out there, if you want to hunt down a few special weapons; GW will even sell you packs of guns.

"I can't afford it, but I want it" is a poor excuse to break the law.

**LunaHound**

Cheese Elemental wrote:Thing is, recasting would be a lot easier than manually sculpting them out of plasticard or greenstuff. And recasting is expensive. You have to pay for the resin, tools, and the silicone mold yourself, and what's the value of a few bitz anyway? A couple of cents?

Yes , and what gives you the right to duplicate something someone spent time to sculpt in the first place? ( ya copying someones home work would be easier than doing it yourself too )

I dont care if recasting is expensive or not , you are doing it to save money then it must be worth it for you to recast.

value of bitz couple of cents? great! now go buy some bits instead of recasting.

now go back and re read the thread so people dont have to repeat themselves.

**Cheese Elemental**

I'm not selling them, am I? How do you suggest I get old minis that I can't buy in stores or on the GW site? Do you expect me to pay more than $70 AUD to give my Noise Marines sonic blasters?

And I never said that I am recasting. I'm considering it for personal use, not for profit.

**LunaHound**

Cheese Elemental wrote:I'm not selling them, am I? How do you suggest I get old minis that I can't buy in stores or on the GW site? Do you expect me to pay more than $70 AUD to give my Noise Marines sonic blasters?

And I never said that I am recasting. I'm considering it for personal use, not for profit.

Lol , how many times must i repeat this. " it does not fething matter if its for personal use or not "

READ my tyranid army example on the other thread , seems like NO ONE understood what i said till JHDD posted it again.

**mikhaila**

Cheese Elemental wrote:After the flaming shenanigans that was the 'Confessions of a recaster' thread, I became curious as to what most people think of it. Yes, it's illegal and I'd prefer to buy things for the sake of being a good citizen, but sometimes it's just practical or necessary. I mean, does GW seriously expect me to buy three metal IG Special Weapon blisters to make a squad of melta-vets? And where am I supposed to get fresh, unpainted RT era minis?

And some people say that recasting anything is cheating GW. Don't you think we pay enough already for their products?

I'd only recast small things like special weapons, certain bitz, or old OOP minis. What's your view? I didn't follow the last thread too well.

I often have the same moral dilemma: illegal, but it's practical or necessary.

I mean, say you like your buddy's girlfriend, but know she won't date you while she's out with him. It's illegal to kill him and dump mind control drugs in her wine, but it's more practical to throw him under a bus than wait around forever in case she dumps him. Heck, if he has an IG army with melta vets, you could make a double score.

My arguement is far fetched, yes. But look at the OP's. Recasting is illega, but if I want something and don't want to pay for it, I can find a way to justify it. Practical? Necessary? Neither of those is true in this case.

**Cheese Elemental**

Yes it is. Would you rather go through the pain of ordering metal bitz from GW, waiting weeks for a screwed-up order, sending it back, and waiting even longer for the right order to come?

I've had horrible experiences with GW bitz services, and I'm not buying them anymore.

Yes, I know that it's illegal, but it's simply practical and sensible anyway. GW makes us pay out the nose for models that aren't even high quality, and you're calling me a petty thief, Luna?

**LunaHound**

Cheese Elemental wrote:
Yes, I know that it's illegal, but it's simply practical and sensible anyway. GW makes us pay out the nose for models that aren't even high quality, and you're calling me a petty thief, Luna?

If you want to steal something , steal it for the purpose and the sake of some starving children.

You want to steal some stuff for a game ? Sure is petty to me. I cant sugar coat it sorry cheese.

**Cheese Elemental**

I wouldn't define it as stealing, TBH. Casting a meltagun is far too small and insignificant to be worth sueing over to GW, and I know this for a fact, as my friend recasts and the local Redshirts are very much aware of it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is a line between reasonable expectations and downright lunacy. Nobody in their right mind is going to buy multiple Special Weapon blisters to make their meltavets, not when they cost $22 AUD.

Let's tally this up, shall we?

10 Guardsmen: $35
3x Special Weapon blisters: $66.

Only someone with too much money or a downright idiot is going to pay that much for one squad. It's a damn meltagun, Luna! A tiny piece of plastic a centimetre in length! Do you think GW is going to sue me for copying that? Do you think that the courts would actually support it?

**LunaHound**

Cheese Elemental wrote:I wouldn't define it as stealing, TBH. Casting a meltagun is far too small and insignificant to be worth sueing over to GW, and I know this for a fact, as my friend recasts and the local Redshirts are very much aware of it.

Guess what cheese , stealing even a penny is still stealing. Im going to stop discussing this with you now , if something as basic as this we cant agree on.

**99MDeery**

Thats pretty much whats Luna is saying as thats the letter of the law cheese.

Go to bitz kingdom and you can outfit 3 plastic cadians with meltas for what $1, surely thats far cheaper and easier than a) finding away to justify petty theft in a "room full of people" that will just see it as petty theft and b) the initial outlay for the materials to produce said $1 item when i could have bought them and done it much faster.

Dude get a grip your poking a dead fire for the sake of starting it again.

**Manchu**

I wonder how some of you hardliners feel about illegally downloading music and/or movies, television shows, anime, etc.

**Polonius**

Cheese Elemental wrote:I wouldn't define it as stealing, TBH. Casting a meltagun is far too small and insignificant to be worth sueing over to GW, and I know this for a fact, as my friend recasts and the local Redshirts are very much aware of it.

For those following along, this is what's known as making a claim, and then arguing something else to make it look like you're backing up the claim. He says that he wouldn't define it as stealing, and then talks about how it wouldn't be worth GW suing over. Both are true, but that doesn't make it anything other than stealing.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is a line between reasonable expectations and downright lunacy. Nobody in their right mind is going to buy multiple Special Weapon blisters to make their meltavets, not when they cost $22 AUD.

Let's tally this up, shall we?

10 Guardsmen: $35
3x Special Weapon blisters: $66.

Only someone with too much money or a downright idiot is going to pay that much for one squad. It's a damn meltagun, Luna! A tiny piece of plastic a centimetre in length! Do you think GW is going to sue me for copying that? Do you think that the courts would actually support it?

Again, you're confusing what's right with what's likely to happen. The answer to the latter is, yes, they will. If GW sued, the amount of reproduction doesn't matter.

Sorry dude, I'm not telling you not to recast what you need. But it is nothing other than "I want things I'm not willing to pay for, so I'll take them instead." If you don't feel bad, and aren't caught, bully for you. But don't expect us to buy your bit that it's anything other than illegal, immoral, and selfish.

**Redbeard**

Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is a line between reasonable expectations and downright lunacy. Nobody in their right mind is going to buy multiple Special Weapon blisters to make their meltavets, not when they cost $22 AUD.
...
Only someone with too much money or a downright idiot is going to pay that much for one squad. It's a damn meltagun, Luna! A tiny piece of plastic a centimetre in length! Do you think GW is going to sue me for copying that? Do you think that the courts would actually support it?

**KingCracker**

I think for what cheese is wanting to do, I totally see and understand casting. Hell Id do it for the same reason. I wanted to make a SM chapter where ALL the standard marines had the beaky helms. But seeing as you only got 2 or 3 in a box, casting was the only reasonable way of doing it, since they stopped their bitz selling.
Now if you caste to simply make free money, then no its totally wrong to do that. Period.

**Polonius**

KingCracker wrote:I think for what cheese is wanting to do, I totally see and understand casting. Hell Id do it for the same reason. I wanted to make a SM chapter where ALL the standard marines had the beaky helms. But seeing as you only got 2 or 3 in a box, casting was the only reasonable way of doing it, since they stopped their bitz selling.
Now if you caste to simply make free money, then no its totally wrong to do that. Period.

I"m not saying I wouldn't do what Cheese does. I'm sure some of my "too good to be true" deals are recasts. I just don't try to defend as anything other than self interest.

BTW, I never though it would be cheaper to build metal armies than plastic, but if you wanted to build mech vets out of metal catachans they sell for 1-2 bucks a peice on ebay.

**LunaHound**

Redbeard wrote:

Why not? To make my meltagun guys, I not only had to buy models with flamers, but then also buy meltaguns to do the conversion with (Vostroyans don't have meltaguys).

For that matter, my Emperor's Children all have the sculpted shoulder pads. At the time I made that army, each shoulder pad was a separate bit - it was something like $1 or $2/pad. For every guy in the army.

Could I have done that cheaper by casting them? Yes. Would it be ethical? No. As Luna says, this is a hobby. You're not stealing bread for your kids, you're not stealing cancer medicines for old people, you're stealing toys for no one's enjoyment but your own. Just because it isn't worth GW's lawyer's time to go after you, or the court's time to prosecute you doesn't mean that you have a right to do it. You don't. You're a thief, and that's all there is to it. No argument you make about comparative value matters. You're stealing.

Thank you thank you thank you. What he said is what i wanted to say.

And to cheese , would i buy a $30 box just for 1-2 melta or plasma gun?

Yes- I - Would . Its not about affording or not , its not about lunacy . For the rest of the bits i dont end up using i will sell or trade it.

**Manchu**

That is a very rigid stand, Luna. I ask again, does it apply to other things in your life, like digital media?

(I'm asking sincerely.)

**BrookM**

Didn't BLACK GOBBO do an article on casting copies of things?

**LunaHound**

Manchu wrote:That is a very rigid stand, Luna. I ask again, does it apply to other things in your life, like digital media?

(I'm asking sincerely.)

Yes it does.

BrookM wrote:Didn't BLACK GOBBO do an article on casting copies of things?

I did , it was a very nice thread rofl even some of the mods loved it .

however it was locked soon after because the models used for example was GW product!

**Polonius**

Luna Hound makes a pretty valid point. It's not like GW products are completely illiquid as far as resale.

I recognize that people building IG up from a cold start are in a bad way for melta guns. I really do understand. There are pretty valid options however, aside from recasting.

**LunaHound**

Polonius wrote:Luna Hound makes a pretty valid point. It's not like GW products are completely illiquid as far as resale.

Thank you , and the example from this goes right back to the other thread on why it effects GW and its customer even if its NOT recasted to be sold.

Imagine if everyone have recasted the weapons they need , who will buy the bits? No one.

**Manchu**

LunaHound wrote:
Manchu wrote:That is a very rigid stand, Luna. I ask again, does it apply to other things in your life, like digital media?

(I'm asking sincerely.)

Yes it does.

Same here. And I am often told that I am a fool for it. I'm not sure if it's the most pressing of moral issues.

Here, I think, is Cheese's basic point:

Why should consumers be responsible to companies when companies are not responsible to consumers?

Certain the burden on the company should be greater?

**LunaHound**

Manchu wrote:Why should consumers be responsible to companies when companies are not responsible to consumers?[/b]
Certain the burden on the company should be greater?

Because the customers made the decision to invest GW company via their products , and chose to put up with the company's BS on their free will.

GW didnt force or scam anyone to get into the hobby.

Should the company have great burden? yes and no.

They arnt obligated to do so by any means under the law.
However if they wish to keep the existing customers, they still should show some concern ( even if its just an act)