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I'd like a consensus on whether Ap1 from the 5th ed rulebook and Strength D from the Apocalypse Rulebook Stack.

i.e +2 to super heavy damage table

from Tau Tigershark

I reckon it probably does. I don't see why not as Apocalypse IS an expansion to W40k so presumably same rules apply...



Since writing the above I checked the rulebook and it doesn't say AP1 or Open-topped modifiers apply. Perhaps super heavies are big enough to shrug off AP1?

While it doesnt say they *do* apply, they don't need to - the expansion book means you follow all the rules from the main book, except where they tell you differently.

Yes, they definitely do stack. Hit a Brass Scorpion and youre looking at +4 to the table

the +1 from ap1 weapons is listed on the regular damage table in the core rulebook. the apocalypse table doesn't list that modifier if i recall correctly so you don't get it just like open topped. they're separate tables with separate results used for different units; they should only share things that are listed in both. i don't have the apoc book with me but is the strength D +1 modifier under the weapon description or the table? if its under the weapon description then you should get them both when firing at a normal vehicle.

edit: i just took a peek at the apoc book and the strength D weapons get the bonus on any damage chart. the superheavy damage chart has its own list of modifiers but the ap1 is not on them. the only place it's listed is in the regular vehicle damage chart in the core book. we're not talking about regular vehicles but BANEBLADES!!

Super heavies are super for a reason.

AP1 does not apply to the super heavies since the Super Heavy damage table does not support it.

hmm, but the exception is that the super heavy dmage table was written for the 4th edition ruleset.

that ruleset defines ap1 weapons as always penetrating except for obscured vehicles.

the 5th edition rules therefore need to resolve ap1 glancing hits on a super-heavy

I do see where the confusion is but since it's apoc, it's pretty loosely written. The people I play with seem to lean toward the no AP boost since there is so much D weapons running around anyway.

since the 5th edition version of AP1 no longer confers the always penetrates, but instead gives a +1 to the damage table, it should apply to the Super Heavy Damage table as well.

otherwise, when using a 4th edition rule set(Apocalypse), one should only use 4th edition modifiers.


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the majority of the D strength weapons are all Ap2.

Strength D ignores cover, but as written, can still be "downgraded" to a glancing by smoke or skimmer moving fast.

Tau have no Str-D class weapons(even the Tiger-Shark is listed as having a Twin-Linked Str10 Ap1 Ordinance 1, Titan-Killer option)

We play a ton of apoc at my shops. Basically, we give the ap1 +1 bonus against normal vehicles, and the +1 from StrD weapons agains all vehicles, superheavy or normal. We do not apply the ap1 bonus against superheavies, and don't stack the bonuses against normal vehicles.

the_trooper wrote:I do see where the confusion is but since it's apoc, it's pretty loosely written. The people I play with seem to lean toward the no AP boost since there is so much D weapons running around anyway.

I think you are sorely mistaken sir, because my orbital defense laser with Str D ap1 was using +2 against everything and it worked famously against those Silver Towers and a friendly dreadnaught....

Yes, well read moaR!

Yes, well read moaR!

Lacross wrote:since the 5th edition version of AP1 no longer confers the always penetrates, but instead gives a +1 to the damage table, it should apply to the Super Heavy Damage table as well.

your original question seemed more geared to "does it?" not "should it?". the RAW doesn't care what edition your supplement was written under, only the RAI (i feel dirty.. like i'm channeling GWAR!). as long as there isn't some sort of logic conflict between the apoc (4th ed) and current (5th ed) rules (which there isn't) there really isn't a rules problem. the RAW don't list the modifier under the super heavies and neither do the melta/ap rules in the core book. the ONLY place it shows up IIRC is under the standard vehicle damage chart under modifiers for that table. do i agree that meltas/ap1 had a better deal in 4th if your rules quoted are correct? (i skipped that edition so i can't comment). sure. do the RAI mean you should apply it in an attempt to regain 4th ed ap1 power? doubtful. if GW wanted to change that, they'd have put that in the Apoc Reloaded book or an FAQ. either way, i don't own superheavies nor play apoc so moot point for me. if you and your opponent are fine with adding that modifier to the superheavy table, go ahead.

In addition

warboss wrote:the +1 from ap1 weapons is listed on the regular damage table in the core rulebook. the apocalypse table doesn't list that modifier if i recall correctly so you don't get it just like open topped. they're separate tables with separate results used for different units; they should only share things that are listed in both. i don't have the apoc book with me but is the strength D +1 modifier under the weapon description or the table? if its under the weapon description then you should get them both when firing at a normal vehicle.

edit: i just took a peek at the apoc book and the strength D weapons get the bonus on any damage chart. the superheavy damage chart has its own list of modifiers but the ap1 is not on them. the only place it's listed is in the regular vehicle damage chart in the core book. we're not talking about regular vehicles but BANEBLADES!!

does that mean a Super Heavy Open topped vehicle ignores the 5th edition modifiers for damage as well?

I would conclude that since open-topped applies then Ap1 would apply as well.

depends... i'm away from my books at the moment so i'll answer your question with another. is the modifier only listed on the REGULAR vehicle chart? or is it listed under the definition and rules regarding open topped vehicles? if it's only in the first one, then it doesn't IMHO. if in the second, i'd personally say it applies to both but i could easily see someone taking the other side of that arguement.

both such rules Pg.61 are described in text and included in the table.

Therefore I support that the effect applies.


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open topped vehicles are described in pg.70 of the core rulebook


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In contrast, the Super Heavy Damage Table(SHDT) does not list open topped as a relevant modifier

Lacross wrote:
Tau have no Str-D class weapons(even the Tiger-Shark is listed as having a Twin-Linked Str10 Ap1 Ordinance 1, Titan-Killer option)

Wrong. See IA:Apocalypse.

(or Apoclayptic Mistakes as it is commonly known. About 20 pages of corrections....)

thanks


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ok... so the manta now has a Str D Ap1 Ord1 destroyer Heavy rail-gun...

what does destroyer mean?

Destroyer == Strength D

nosferatu1001 wrote:Destroyer == Strength D

that seems redundant, especially when compared to the IA:A Tiger-Shark it having a Str 10 destroyer weapon


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"IA:A Tiger-Shark it having a Str 10 destroyer weapon"

ok, so it uses the destroyer rules without needing to be Str D


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after some thought I've accepted that Ap1 does not affect Super H Vehicles, but in response I'll have to acquire a Super Heavy of my own.


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thank you all