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All the mechdar list seem to run avengers in a serpent.

I dont understand what so good about avengers..

Do the spend the whole game hiding in their transport? Then wouldn't guardians be better?

Do the get out and try to shoot the enemy? Does this not seem crazy as then the wave serpent now has to show its rear armor so they can exit and have a proper line of site to target?

Please tell me the purposes for them in a mechdar list.. And what upgrades do you give them exarch with bladestorm? Or just normal avengers to keep cost down.

I am looking to start mechdar yet jetbikes with cannon and naked guardians in serpant seem better for troops.

Please enlighten me.

bladestorm is THE reason why avengers are taken.

i don't play them only have played against them and read about eldar, so your questions regarding tactics are outside of my knowledge. But i do know that bladestorm is the bee's knees

Dire Avengers in serpent with exarch w/ twin cats and bladestorm.

Turn 1: Zoom 24"..getting your 4+ save, keep avengers in.

Turn 2: Move 12"...disembark, bladestorm.

Turn 3: Embark, Zoom away....

Turn 4: Move 12"...disembark, bladestorm.

( You turn the side of the serpent to the target when unloading. You can shoot through your own unit, so stacking The avengers in a column is not an issue, and the side of the serpent is just as good as the front.)

If your lucky, you get to pull of the 1st turn bladestorm, but that is rare. The advantage is the turn you can't shoot due to bladestorm, your safe in a 4+ save waveserpent.

In my experience, used as described above, they're great against orks/guards/small tyranids/eldar, ok against MEQs. The problem is when you come up against a mechanised force, since they can't get any high strength special weapons. I played my mate's IG veterans last week, and one problem was that the dire avengers were dead weight.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:In my experience, used as described above, they're great against orks/guards/small tyranids/eldar, ok against MEQs. The problem is when you come up against a mechanised force, since they can't get any high strength special weapons. I played my mate's IG veterans last week, and one problem was that the dire avengers were dead weight.

Yep, I agree. In a perfect world, the Waveserpent is armed with a TL Brightlance, pops the transport (with a 6), then the avengers can go to work. But I wouldn't count on that...plus those brightlances are expensive.

Thankyou very much for the replies.

Rangerrob that is a great rundown I appreciate it. Just checked out your blog nice autarch BTW

Here's another thing with DAs in a serpent with bladestorm. Stick a farseer in with them and use guide on the DAs and Doom on the enemy unit.

This allows you to fire 33 S4 AP5 shots at the enemy that re-roll both failed to hit and failed to wound rolls.

Isn't exarch + bladestorm kinda a waste of points? I was under the impression that it costs close to 3-4 extra DA which technically would get you almost the same amount of shots every turn instead of just 1 turn.

I honestly prefer 2x Flamer Storm Guardians with a Destructor Warlock to the Baldestorm DAs. They cost fewer points, ignore cover saves, and can pour out as many wounds (especially after bunching up your target with a tankshock from the Serpent).

True, they don't have the 4+ armor of the DAs, but in trade they do have a Witchblade, as well as the option of upgrading it to a Singing spear, just in case you need to pop a vehicle.

Then again, it is a playstyle thing. I know several players that love their DAs.

Timmah wrote:Isn't exarch + bladestorm kinda a waste of points? I was under the impression that it costs close to 3-4 extra DA which technically would get you almost the same amount of shots every turn instead of just 1 turn.

No. This way they fit in a serpent.

Also, Exarch w/ bladestorm + squad launches off 32 shots. With 4 more avengers, you get 27 shots.

Also, there is a squad limit of ten.

I guess I'll be the lone dissenting voice. Uber-units are really not all that uber in high-level play.

If you spam 5 DAs in a wave serpent, you will have a more competitive army, but you won't be able to look at the one unit and say "look at all the stuff I killed in one turn!!!" which makes some people feel good about their "tactics."

Add onto that the fact that bladestorm isn't even that much more effective for single turn kills for the cost investment: 32 points for a bladestorm/twin-cats exarch... more stuff is better than more upgrades.

Also... well I don't know about you guys, but a lot of times my dire avengers get to shoot two turn in a row, because I don't rely on only them to take out my chosen targets, and I hit the ground with higher priority targets at the same time as them (see: fire dragons)... well, if you're using a 10 man squad, 40 shots over two turns is more dead stuff than 32 shots over two turns... and for cheaper too.

Honestly, if you're going to even purchase an exarch for Dire Avengers, Defend is the power to run because it gives the avengers a tar-pit role that not many other units can match. There are tons and tons of things in the Eldar army that can kill infantry effectively, so spending precious points (in a list where most things are slightly over-costed) just to kill infantry better is not really a winning strategy.

yes, pretty much what willy said.

The problem with bladestorm is that when you use it, your opponents gets to ignore the DAs next turn and focus on their serpent, and then they get to slaughter your DAs that don't have a ride the turn after that. Bladestorm just isn't as damaging as it seems for the points.

Bladestorm encourages you to disembark your DAs and usually that ends up being a bad idea.

You are still gaining with bladestorm as far as I see. I really dont plan on dropping mine out until turn 2-3. And when I do I plan on breaking what they shoot or at least severely gimping it. The advantage is you are piling the shots in one shooting phase. So you get out and bladestorm. You get shot at once. You get back in and reposition. Without blade storm you would have to get out and shoot then get shot. Shoot again and then get shot again before you put out the a comparable amount of damage. That is also slowing you down mobility wise.

Plus given the short range of eldar guns most armies will charge you shortly after you shoot them Orks and tyranids can close that distance pretty fast. Blade storm is a way to put enough hurt on them that when they charge there's not as much left. I just dont count on being able to shoot a unit 2 times in a row without getting charged.

I never thought about the storm guardians putting out a ton of flamer shots. To me its going to come down to I like the DA models more than guardians. Plus it is kinda fun to roll all those dice at once.

Alerian wrote:I honestly prefer 2x Flamer Storm Guardians with a Destructor Warlock to the Baldestorm DAs. They cost fewer points, ignore cover saves, and can pour out as many wounds (especially after bunching up your target with a tankshock from the Serpent).

True, they don't have the 4+ armor of the DAs, but in trade they do have a Witchblade, as well as the option of upgrading it to a Singing spear, just in case you need to pop a vehicle.

Then again, it is a playstyle thing. I know several players that love their DAs.

I say bring them and the Dire Avengers.

Build:
10 avengers, dual catapult exarch w/ bladestorm

Load up in a serpent.
Turn 1 dash forward with 2-3.
Turn 2, fire your weapons, move, disembark, bladestorm.
Turn 3 load up back in the serpents.

Repeat turns 2 and 3 until the desired effect is achieved.

Alternatively:
10 Avengers, Shimmershield exarch w/ bladestorm AND defend.

Turn 1 dash forward and turn your butt towards the enemy.
Turn 2 move 6 inches, bladestorm, assault.
Great against everything, things with power weapons still let you take a 5+ save, and gets 1 less attack, things without power weapons get 1 less attack. Almost everything strikes last. It's a suicide unit, except it isn't very good at dying. Can hold up even TH/SS termies for 3-4 turns.

Canonness Rory wrote:Build:
10 avengers, dual catapult exarch w/ bladestorm

Load up in a serpent.
Turn 1 dash forward with 2-3.
Turn 2, fire your weapons, move, disembark, bladestorm.
Turn 3 load up back in the serpents.

Repeat turns 2 and 3 until the desired effect is achieved.

Alternatively:
10 Avengers, Shimmershield exarch w/ bladestorm AND defend.

Turn 1 dash forward and turn your butt towards the enemy.
Turn 2 move 6 inches, bladestorm, assault.
Great against everything, things with power weapons still let you take a 5+ save, and gets 1 less attack, things without power weapons get 1 less attack. Almost everything strikes last. It's a suicide unit, except it isn't very good at dying. Can hold up even TH/SS termies for 3-4 turns.

Those plans only work well if your opponent does not kill your waveserpents. If you're facing an opponent with a properly built force, a couple of dead wave serpents is not hard to accomplish, despite the fact that they are the second-most-durable dedicated transport in the game (behind dedicated land raiders).

As has been said earlier, bladestorm allows your opponent to ignore the avengers for a turn, thus potentally allowing your opponent to focus on your wave serpents even more.

I know Dire Avengers are a viable option, but I also like the 2 flamer storm guardian squad with a warlock. Also not mentioned is the 2 fusion gun storm squad with a lock. I'm suprised that with all the mobile melta squads being spammed in other armies that we don't see this option pop up in eldar lists. I know that the eldar already have fire dragons to fill this roll but in higher point games the fusion storm squads can do this and open up elite slots for taking harlies or something else.

augustus5 wrote:I know Dire Avengers are a viable option, but I also like the 2 flamer storm guardian squad with a warlock. Also not mentioned is the 2 fusion gun storm squad with a lock. I'm suprised that with all the mobile melta squads being spammed in other armies that we don't see this option pop up in eldar lists. I know that the eldar already have fire dragons to fill this roll but in higher point games the fusion storm squads can do this and open up elite slots for taking harlies or something else.

It's because fusion gun guardians don't have the BS to make two meltaguns semi-reliable. Also, if you take a walock, then they become more expensive than a fire dragon unit, but not as powerful. I've been thinking of ways to use a fusion gun storm guardian squad but I think they just don't really cut it.

willydstyle wrote:

augustus5 wrote:I know Dire Avengers are a viable option, but I also like the 2 flamer storm guardian squad with a warlock. Also not mentioned is the 2 fusion gun storm squad with a lock. I'm suprised that with all the mobile melta squads being spammed in other armies that we don't see this option pop up in eldar lists. I know that the eldar already have fire dragons to fill this roll but in higher point games the fusion storm squads can do this and open up elite slots for taking harlies or something else.

It's because fusion gun guardians don't have the BS to make two meltaguns semi-reliable. Also, if you take a walock, then they become more expensive than a fire dragon unit, but not as powerful. I've been thinking of ways to use a fusion gun storm guardian squad but I think they just don't really cut it.

QFT. 5 Dragons is only 80 points.

Yes, the fusion gun guardians are just too inferior to the fire dragons to be considered.

The one big reason that DA have an advantage over flamer guardians is the range question. A flamer guardian needs to be adjacent to the target to use its 2-3 flamer templates. The DA only have to be within 18" to be able to land all of their shots.

Either type of DA squad can work very well but have to be used quite differently. Which to take will depend a great deal on the rest of the army ... and your own play style.


Sliggoth

willydstyle wrote:I guess I'll be the lone dissenting voice. Uber-units are really not all that uber in high-level play.

If you spam 5 DAs in a wave serpent, you will have a more competitive army, but you won't be able to look at the one unit and say "look at all the stuff I killed in one turn!!!" which makes some people feel good about their "tactics."

Add onto that the fact that bladestorm isn't even that much more effective for single turn kills for the cost investment: 32 points for a bladestorm/twin-cats exarch... more stuff is better than more upgrades.

Also... well I don't know about you guys, but a lot of times my dire avengers get to shoot two turn in a row, because I don't rely on only them to take out my chosen targets, and I hit the ground with higher priority targets at the same time as them (see: fire dragons)... well, if you're using a 10 man squad, 40 shots over two turns is more dead stuff than 32 shots over two turns... and for cheaper too.

Honestly, if you're going to even purchase an exarch for Dire Avengers, Defend is the power to run because it gives the avengers a tar-pit role that not many other units can match. There are tons and tons of things in the Eldar army that can kill infantry effectively, so spending precious points (in a list where most things are slightly over-costed) just to kill infantry better is not really a winning strategy.

I have to disagree with all of this.

5 DA's in waveserpent. If you run this you never get out of your waves because the turn you do you will die. Eldar are a very fragile army. you either hit hard and eliminate any retaliation or you hit soft and die the next turn. your 5man DA unit would be a hit soft unit. unless you spam them in waves and never get out. in which case your relying on the wave serpents to do all the work which is good vs some lists but not vs others. (horde comes to mind)

Dire Avenger exarch with Defend is not a tarpit unit. so the enemy has 1 less attack in assault. your still a STR3 T3 4+ save unit. you will lose combat and you will get swept. You want an eldar tarpit unit then run a 5man Wraithguard unit in a wave with warlock. otherwise keep your Dire Exarch with defend at home because he will fail in that role.

There are tones of things that an Eldar army can kill infantry with effectively. that is correct. now name me the tons of effecting things that a mech eldar list can use to kill infantry effectivly and leave points for troop slots. which brings me to my next point.

The reason people run Dire avengers in Wave in a Mech Eldar list is because they are the best Troop choice for Mech Eldar. I'll go over our choices.

Guardians- only LD8,5+ save,only 12 inch range catapults that are BS3, just as expensive as Dire avengers if you include a Warlock and less effective.

Guardian Jet bikes. Fragile and see above for LD,BS. They can be effective in 3/6 man units if you plan to leave them in reserve and grab objectives late in the game by turbo boosting.

Dire Avengers- Best choice for Mech eldar. run 9+Exarch in a Wave with bladestorm and duel cats and you have a solid unit that fills your troop slots and is a great unit to hold objectives/contest/ clear the area of infantry with the help of Doom/Guide.

The final troop choice (Rangers/Pathfinders) does not work well in a mech eldar list so its best not to field them. playing Eldar well is about units supporting each other. you do not want pathfinders in a fast army. they will be unsupported. Mech Eldar needs to be mobile to react to battle conditions. The army is best used together and not split apart. attack the weakest portions of the enemy army at a time. and all the units should support each other. example. the turn the DA's get out to bladestorm something you should have a countercharge unit ready to assault anything that retaliates. example. banshees or scorps in wave.

I my list I run 3 troop choices.

ones squad of storm guardians with 2 flamers, warlock with destructor, yriel often joins them

one squad of 5 dire avengers in a falcon with a farseer with doom and fortune

one squad of 10 dire avengers with blade storm in a waveserpent.

The rest of the army is high impact units like 3 X 10 fire dragons, exarch crack shot, dragons breath or 8 warlocks 1 with enhance 7 with destructor.

I've given up on ranged support from Eldar. Now I simply deploy everything off the board, pick the unit to destroy, eliminate them and stay in the tanks.

Fast brutal and effective.

Most of the other troop choices are inferior unless you spam them.

I agree with deFl0. I run a similar list. Dire Avengers are good in that you can fit a squad inside a Falcon, while Bladestorm Avengers and Flamer Guardians are about equally good for popping out at crucial moments to inflict pain. In smaller games I actually run with Shuriken Cannon Guardians in Wave serpents to save the points. They can still be potentially devastating when targetting damaged units and combining their fire power, but need to be used with alot more care.