Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Are these really as amazing as everyone is claiming? They only get about 10 attacks most rounds in close combat. Sure they are all power fist attacks, but it seems like an easy enough unit to dogpile and just outwound them seeing as your squad gets so few attacks and has so few models.

For instance, attacking chaos space marines, you will hit on about half of these so 5 attacks and wound on 4, killing 4 models.
Chaos can easily pile 20 troops in, hit you 20 times, wound 10 times and make you lose 2 of your terminators.

And now you have lost a ton of your power and will probably be dragged down quickly in the next couple rounds.

Anyways I don't deny this is a strong unit, but it just seems that because of the size, that this type of squad can easily be countered even by shooty armies.

Most people that talk about taking this unit decide to take 10 of them, or 8 mounted in an LRC. With a full unit of ten, lead by Lysander, Shrike, or Vulkan, they are a force to be reckoned with. The also have a wide enough frontage to do large multi-charges.

Yes but it is the fact that they have a 2+ save and 3+ invulnerable so scare factor, and they can be taken in squads of up to ten. and all this without owning the space marine codex (but I did read a mates so I know what I'm talking about)

The thunder hammer is not the strength of the TH/SS termie.
The strength of the TH/SS termie is the Storm Shield that grants a 3+ invuln save in close combat. 10 TH/SS termies beat 10 LC termies by a longshot. They are usually taken in a 4:1 ratio though.

In your above example, chaos loses by two, and has to take a Ld test, and that's not even on the charge, where they lose twice as many, and that's assuming that chaos actually HAS 20 marines handy to pile in.

Not only that, but each termie has 2 attacks, 3 on the charge, so 5 termies vs 20 chaos marines is 200 points vs 300, before upgrades, so it is hardly a fair example.

Canonness Rory wrote:The thunder hammer is not the strength of the TH/SS termie.
The strength of the TH/SS termie is the Storm Shield that grants a 3+ invuln save in close combat. 10 TH/SS termies beat 10 LC termies by a longshot. They are usually taken in a 4:1 ratio though.

In your above example, chaos loses by two, and has to take a Ld test, and that's not even on the charge, where they lose twice as many, and that's assuming that chaos actually HAS 20 marines handy to pile in.

Very true, but after the first set of attacks when the Terminators get reduced by 1-2 they start losing a ton of power.

I guess my fear is that the power of the unit drops off so fast.

That's why you take 8 and put them in a crusader.

Timmah wrote:

Canonness Rory wrote:The thunder hammer is not the strength of the TH/SS termie.
The strength of the TH/SS termie is the Storm Shield that grants a 3+ invuln save in close combat. 10 TH/SS termies beat 10 LC termies by a longshot. They are usually taken in a 4:1 ratio though.

In your above example, chaos loses by two, and has to take a Ld test, and that's not even on the charge, where they lose twice as many, and that's assuming that chaos actually HAS 20 marines handy to pile in.

Very true, but after the first set of attacks when the Terminators get reduced by 1-2 they start losing a ton of power.

I guess my fear is that the power of the unit drops off so fast.

Like I said, each termie has 2 attacks, so even a bare-minimum squad kills enough chaos marines on the charge to reduce them to Ld 5-6. 300 points vs 300 points is just unfair in the termie's favor, especially if they take a land raider and can move 12 inches, disembark 2 inches, and charge 6, if you have shrike you get a fleet move! compared to chaos marines moving 12 inches, waiting a turn, then disembarking and charging 6.

Also: If you're using them for crowd control you're doing it R.O.N.G, they are anti-tank and anti-elite units, like chaos terminators, carnifexes, dreadnoughts, wraithlords, seer council, nobz, etc.

It's a tarpit and mass assault unit. Odd that most people don't consider pedro running around w/assault termies. 4A's on the charge? yes please!

The reason they are so feared is that they can multi-charge, eat vehicles, and take a ton of AP2 shooting/power weapon attacks to take down. All for just 200+ points.

Let's see some mathhammer:
5 TH/SS Termies and 1 LC termie in a land raider charges those 20 chaos marines.

LC termie and marine attack simultaneously, 4 attakcs, 2 hits, 1.75 wounds (rounding up)
40 attacks for the marines, 20 hits, 10 wounds, 2 termies lost.
12 attacks back, 6 hits, 5 wounds. 7 wounds vs 2 wounds, marines lose by 5, they are Ld9, so they now have to take a test at...
wait for it...
Ld4.

Now, this is hardly the most economical use of them, let's see that same group of 6 vs 10 CSM termies.

LC and CSM termies strike at the same time.
4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.75 wounds, 0.33 saves, so let's say 1 wound there.
20 attacks back, 10 hits, 5 wounds, and a grand total of 1 successful wound on average. *slow clap*
12 attacks back, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 1-2 saves. CSM lose be 3 (being generous in their favor)
Take a test at ld7, they'll probably pass.

240 points of loyalist termies beat 300 points of chaos termies.

pedro within 12 inches and/or chappie in terminator armor too. extra attacks. Reroll to hits. And reroll wounds with your LCs

Nasty

Pedro, Honor guard with chapter banner, chappie in termie armor, 5 attacks on the charge (6 for LCs) reroll hits, reroll wounds with Lcs.

Holy god.

Yes if you calc the perfect example yes. But calcing Termies against each other and stacking the attack on side turns the combat in that sides favor.

If you let the CSM Termis charge its different.

8 CSM Termis with Combi Plasma is 280 points.

16 Shots with Plasma is 10 hits and 8 wounds, let it be 3 kills.

On the charge its 24 attacks, 12 hits 6 wounds, makes 2 kills.

7 loyalist termis
One kill from the LC Termi, and theres 2 more TH attacks makes maybe 1 kill.

Even Fight. 6 CSM vs 2 remaining.


What does it prove? Nothing. Let someone charge and he has an advantage. Thats it.


TH/SS termis are good because they have a 2+/3+ save. They are like the Duracell rabbit, keep going and going and going. Their damage output is good because so many of them survive, and not because of the individual model.

Canonness Rory wrote:Pedro, Honor guard with chapter banner, chappie in termie armor, 5 attacks on the charge (6 for LCs) reroll hits, reroll wounds with Lcs.

Holy god.

You can't stack Pedro's bonus with the Chapter Banner bonus, so 4 attacks on the charge is the best you can do for TH/SS terminators.

Except that it is STILL 240 points vs 280 points, and that is fair... how?
make it even and it ends up 5 vs 3, and the next round of combat is in the loyalist's favor. So congratulations, you managed to prove precisely jack.

Loyalist termies are also more mobile, with the ability to gain fleet of foot, and 3 different types of land raider to choose from, the option for frag assault launchers, and better HQ choices, so they are more likely to get the charge in the first place.

Canonness Rory wrote:Let's see some mathhammer:
5 TH/SS Termies and 1 LC termie in a land raider charges those 20 chaos marines.

LC termie and marine attack simultaneously, 4 attakcs, 2 hits, 1.75 wounds (rounding up)
40 attacks for the marines, 20 hits, 10 wounds, 2 termies lost.
12 attacks back, 6 hits, 5 wounds. 7 wounds vs 2 wounds, marines lose by 5, they are Ld9, so they now have to take a test at...
wait for it...
Ld4.

Now, this is hardly the most economical use of them, let's see that same group of 6 vs 10 CSM termies.

LC and CSM termies strike at the same time.
4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.75 wounds, 0.33 saves, so let's say 1 wound there.
20 attacks back, 10 hits, 5 wounds, and a grand total of 1 successful wound on average. *slow clap*
12 attacks back, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 1-2 saves. CSM lose be 3 (being generous in their favor)
Take a test at ld7, they'll probably pass.

240 points of loyalist termies beat 300 points of chaos termies.

Chaos marines get 2 attacks each they come with bolt pistol/CC weapon. should be 40 attacks for the chaos marines. also dont forget the champ with fist. your going to run one in a 20 man unit. also in 20 man unit any mark is economical. all of this is a mute point because noone runs 20 man chaos marine units.

I GAVE the chaos marines their 40 attacks.

40 attacks for the marines, 20 hits, 10 wounds, 2 termies lost.

The champ would be another 10 points + gear, and the mark would be ANOTHER 10 points at least, leaving it 240 vs 320 minimum, for a grand total of 1 more attack, or +1init or a RR for morale.

I guess I wasn't really saying the unit was bad. But more that its not a take all comers unit. Also that it loses power very fast. Even losing one model, you lose a lot of staying power.

Plus, no fancy wound allocations.

No, it's not a golden unit like nob bikers, but combined with vulcan and his "I make everything so overpowered but make up for it by being a crappy model" BS, they are the absolute best option that space marines have in their elites section.

I don't know, Pedro and sternguard are a good option in the elite slots too

Voronesh wrote:Yes if you calc the perfect example yes. But calcing Termies against each other and stacking the attack on side turns the combat in that sides favor.

If you let the CSM Termis charge its different.

8 CSM Termis with Combi Plasma is 280 points.

16 Shots with Plasma is 10 hits and 8 wounds, let it be 3 kills.

On the charge its 24 attacks, 12 hits 6 wounds, makes 2 kills.

7 loyalist termis
One kill from the LC Termi, and theres 2 more TH attacks makes maybe 1 kill.

Even Fight. 6 CSM vs 2 remaining.


What does it prove? Nothing. Let someone charge and he has an advantage. Thats it.


TH/SS termis are good because they have a 2+/3+ save. They are like the Duracell rabbit, keep going and going and going. Their damage output is good because so many of them survive, and not because of the individual model.

Okay, first let's run your Mathhammer

LC marine= 3(1/2x3/4x2/3)=3/4 (since apparently we're rounding up that makes it 1)

TH marine= 2(1/2x5/6x2/3)= 5/9 (this is so close to 50% we won't round it up)

so there's your 1.5 kills versus 4 kills by the CSM. True, it's likely that they will run, and if not it'll take two more turns for the squad to be wiped out completely, with the chaos squad only losing 4 men.

Meanwhile if the SM get the charge it looks something like this:

Round 1

LC Marine: 4(1/2x3/4x2/3)= 1kill

Chaos marines: 16(1/2x1/2x1/3) = 1.33 kills

TH marines: 15(1/2x5/6x2/3)= 25/6 kills

Soo, then Chaos makes it's LD check and we get on to the next round of combat.


Round 2

LC Marine: 3(1/2x3/4x2/3) 3/4 kills

Chaos Marines: 6(1/2x1/2x1/3)= 1/2 kills

TH Marines: 10(1/2x5/6x2/3)= 50/18= 25/9 = the death of the chaos squad.


So, if either unit charges, they win, but It takes one round longer for the Chaos marines to finish the job. Also, the Marine lose less men than Chaos marines do when they charge, and they finish up the combat on the opponents turn, leaving them open to move during the Controlling players turn.

Voronesh wrote:They are like the Duracell rabbit, keep going and going and going.

Energizer?

TheTrueMata wrote:

Voronesh wrote:They are like the Duracell rabbit, keep going and going and going.

Energizer?

Actually it's Duracell in some countries,which is a crime against nature and should be purged... The Energizer bunny!?... Working for Duracell?! DIE TRAITOROUS SCUM!!!!