Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I did not see this question before, but if so, please direct me.

Say I have a mob of troops on the board ("you have a mob of troops on ... " PUNCH).
Now a Monolith Deep Strikes in.
I have to move the troops to make room.
1) Does the Monolith get to position AFTER I make room, or before?
2) Can I position troops to block its exit points?

Sigh. so simple and yet it hurts my brain.

Thanks! :

Hmm, unless the rules prohibit pivoting after deep striking a vehicle, I think the Monolith can position after you move (it is still the Monolith's movement phase after all).

You can only block the Monolith's exit point if it is immobilized first, or you have a large enough mob to completely surround it (30 Ork Boys perhaps)

You have to move your models the shortest possible distance until you are no longer under the monolith. You wouldn't be able to move specifically to ensure that the exit point is blocked. However its still possible if the monolith deep struck into a large enough formation...

To answer your question, I would say that the monolith would determine its position after you move out of the way.

Once the Monolith Deep Strikes - the position you place it in is where it is. You need to make sure that you face it the way you want it when it deep strikes.

Why does he have to move his troops to make room? Is that a special monolith rule? I guess it makes sense that having troops where it wants to "land" wouldn,t matter as much as for jump infantry, considering the size of that thing...

Related question: Can a deep striking vehicle pivot in the shooting phase and/or at the end of its scatter? Seems like the answer to that determines the answer to this question.

It can pivot at the end of its scatter and in the shooting phase, but only if it didn't move in the movement phase.

InquisitorBob wrote:Why does he have to move his troops to make room? Is that a special monolith rule? I guess it makes sense that having troops where it wants to "land" wouldn,t matter as much as for jump infantry, considering the size of that thing...

Yes it is a monolith special rule...

Page 21 Necron codex wrote:
Because of the sheer mass of the monolith , it is not destroyed if there are enemy with in 1 inch when it arrives. Instead, move any models that are inthe way the minimum distance necessary to make space for the Monolith.

Why not just roll up with two battlewagons the turn after it comes in and then surround it?

how come the monolith doesnt have 2 roll on the DS mishap table since it landed on an enemy unit?

The Angry Commissar wrote:how come the monolith doesnt have 2 roll on the DS mishap table since it landed on an enemy unit?

By RAW it does have to roll on the Mishap chart, it just gets to ignore the Destroyed! result, and is placed where it scattered in accordance with it's special rule.

I disagree with having to roll mishap - a drop pod does not need to roll mishap - it just scatters the max distance it can without landing on something....a monolith is a slow descending item - why would it be damaged if it lands on someone. Technically it does not land on them since the RAW states they move out of the way. This causes it to not land on any kind of terrain or item invoking a mishap roll.

vipcaniac wrote:a drop pod does not need to roll mishap

Because the drop pod has a special rule allowing it to ignore the table.

This causes it to not land on any kind of terrain or item invoking a mishap roll.

You can't move terrain out of the way, so it still requires a roll on the table, unless the monolith has a rule allowing it to ignore this fact.

So If a monolith would land on a unit, you roll on the mishap table. If you roll a 1 or 2, it is not destroyed, and you move the troops out of the way.

If you read through the Monolith Deep Strike Rules - it states that it is Ponderous. the RAW states that troops get out of the way but it never calls for mishaps.

vipcaniac wrote:If you read through the Monolith Deep Strike Rules - it states that it is Ponderous. the RAW states that troops get out of the way but it never calls for mishaps.

The rules do call for mishaps:

BGB p.95 wrote:If any of the models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed because they would land off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top or within 1" of an enemy model, something has gone wrong

You must follow all the rules listed in the BGB for Deep Strike, modified where appropriate. The only time you are 'destroyed' (which you are allowed to ignore as per the Necron 'dex) is if you roll a 1 or 2 on the mishap table. It does not allow you to ignore the table.

Yes, the BGB does have rules for mishaps. However, the BGB also states the Codex takes precedent. This means that since the Codex does not call for mishap, the RAW does not refer to BGB page about taking a test.

The Codex covers what happens. It says if you land on someone they simply slide out of the way. I also think it might say you move off of terrain that is impassible, but that I am not sure about. Sure, if you land in the middle of a building or area terrain I would probably agree to a dangerous terrain test. I play games with the store manager who runs the 40K stuff at our store. We all have several Necron players. None of us have seen rules to require a mishap.

Having seen them, and having understood them are often different.

1. The Mono will NEVER land on models, because of its special rule that forces models to move out of its way.

2. If you do not land on the the models, then you do not roll for mishap.

3. Therefore, the Mono will NEVER roll for mishap.

Kinda simple, really.

vipcaniac wrote:None of us have seen rules to require a mishap.

No-one has rules in their codex that call for a mishap - they're not needed because they're universal, that's why they're in the BGB.

if you land on someone they simply slide out of the way

But that is not what the rule says, he relevant part of the rule is: "it is not destroyed if there are enemy with in 1 inch when it arrives"

The only time that the above takes place is if you roll a 1-2 on the mishap table. You could house rule it to be otherwise, but that is not RAW, and you are free to do so, however, unless there is more to the rule than has been quoted you certainly do not 'slide off' terrain.

Remember:

If you ignore the mishap table, you are breaking the DS rules.

If you play the mishap table exactly as per the BGB, you're breaking the monolith rules

EDIT: I am only going off what has been quoted, if someone who has the codex can quote the whole of the relevant rule, I might be able to see where you're coming from.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alerian wrote:1. The Mono will NEVER land on models, because of its special rule that forces models to move out of its way.

Correct. They will never land on models. However the only time you ever 'land' on models are if you roll a 1-2 on the mishap table, the other results are either being placed somewhere else or not coming on yet.

Unistoo...you are wrong.

You NEVER get to the mishap table for monoliths landing near/on troops.

The Monolith rules tell you to move any models out of its way so that it may land.

Because Codex>BRB, the Monolith's rules go into effect as soon as it scatters over/too close to models. You then immediately move the models out of the way and allow the Monolith to land. Therefore, the Monolith NEVER roles on the mishap table for landing on/near models. Period.

Unistoo, please re-read the Monolith rules before continuing this discussion. If you do not have access to the Necron Codex, please stop posting reagarding the Monolith's rules, since you cannot even read them for yourself.

Thank you - someone else understand.

Unistoo, you are correct except for the one big golden rule that the BRB states:
the CODEX always overules the BRB

Therefor, no mishap.

In all fairness, Alerian, maybe it is you who should re-read the monolith's rules. It uses the word "instead" as a replacement of a normal effect, "destroyed," which only happens when rolling a 1-2 on the mishap table. If you land on an enemy unit, you have to roll on the mishap table. A result of 5-6 is"delayed." Delayed is not destroyed, so you follow the rules as required. A result of 3-4 is "misplaced," again having nothing to do with destruction, so you follow the rules accordingly. If you roll a 1-2, then you get a "destroyed" result. Now we check the monolith rules and it says it has a replacement effect for "destroyed" which is "instead, move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary to make space for the monolith."

Personally, every person I've ever seen has played it that the mono always deepstrikes onto enemies successfully, but this is RAW.

Hope that helps,
Kitzz

Kitzz has it correct as well - you may be playing it differently, which is OK, but it's not RAW. Your codex lets you ignore a specific result - that of being destroyed and only that - anything else is a house rule. My Space Marine codex doesn't tell me I have to be able to see a target to shoot at it either, do I still have to follow the rules? Yes.

Because of the sheer mass of the monolith, it is not destroyed if there are enemy with in 1 inch when it arrives.

This is result 1-2 on the mishap table. The monolith has not arrived until you determine how it will arrive on the table.

Here is my reasoning:

I might land on someone, oh no! - I need to roll on the mishap table (the monolith has not arrived at this point).

I roll a 1 or a 2 - it's OK, when I arrive, they move, and I am not destroyed

I roll a 3 or a 4 - it's OK, I arrive elsewhere, there will be no-one within 1" and I am not destroyed.

I roll a 5 or a 6 - it's OK, I do not arrive yet, I am not destroyed.

All of these conditions fulfill the requirements of the rule: in none of them is there a conflict between the new DS rules and the Necron codex - which is where people go wrong - codex only overrides BGB in cases where the rules contradict each other, and there are no contradictions here, because every part of both sets of rules are met.

Now, you may argue that the RAI means that if the monolith has the potential to be within one inch of an enemy unit (not terrain) then you skip right to letting them get out of the way - and indeed, in a friendly game I'd probably say go ahead and do it, but it is not RAW.

Well, according to the rulebook, you place a model, roll for scatter, place the model(s) in deep strike formation and Then check if they are within 1" of enemy units (while deploying) and if you are, roll on mishap table. However, the monolith says to move enemies the minimum distance away. So, following the rules of deepstrike and the monolith, it would go like this:

1)Place the monolith, roll for scatter, replace model if scattered.
2)Check for enemies within 1".
---2b)If so, monolith says to move them minimum distance out of the way.
3)Check other deepstrike mishap (impassable terrain etc).
4)IF anything requiring a mishap roll happens, do the mishap roll.
---4b)Because there is nothing stopping the monolih, no mishap roll is made.

EDIT:Also, the rule says the monolith is not destroyed if their are enemies within 1". While this was assumingly a 3rd edition rule regarding deep strike, it doesn't say "Not destroyed if you roll a destroyed on the mishap table, instead..." IF it said that, then you might have a point.

the rule saya 'it is not destroyed if there is an enemy within 1'' when it arrives'. the BRB says 'If any models cannot be deployed because they would land off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model or within 1'' of an enemy model...the controlling player must roll on the deep strike chart'. the codex does not say anything about the mishap chart, only that if destroyed due to being within 1'' of an enemy model it is not destroyed, 3-6 on the mishap chart prevent this from happening.

except you won't ROLL on the mishap table, because the enemies are moved out of the way, and thus there are no enemies within 1"

EDIT:Also, IF that were true, what would happen if you rolled a 1-2 on the table?

then you would move the enemy models out of the way, by saying DESTROYED in the rule, it means if it is destroyed due to this, not if it lands on any enemy models, ignore the normal deepstrike rules and move the enemy models out of the way does it

unistoo wrote:Kitzz has it correct as well - you may be playing it differently, which is OK, but it's not RAW. Your codex lets you ignore a specific result - that of being destroyed and only that - anything else is a house rule. My Space Marine codex doesn't tell me I have to be able to see a target to shoot at it either, do I still have to follow the rules? Yes.

Because of the sheer mass of the monolith, it is not destroyed if there are enemy with in 1 inch when it arrives.

This is result 1-2 on the mishap table. The monolith has not arrived until you determine how it will arrive on the table.

Here is my reasoning:

I might land on someone, oh no! - I need to roll on the mishap table (the monolith has not arrived at this point).

I roll a 1 or a 2 - it's OK, when I arrive, they move, and I am not destroyed

I roll a 3 or a 4 - it's OK, I arrive elsewhere, there will be no-one within 1" and I am not destroyed.

I roll a 5 or a 6 - it's OK, I do not arrive yet, I am not destroyed.

All of these conditions fulfill the requirements of the rule: in none of them is there a conflict between the new DS rules and the Necron codex - which is where people go wrong - codex only overrides BGB in cases where the rules contradict each other, and there are no contradictions here, because every part of both sets of rules are met.

Now, you may argue that the RAI means that if the monolith has the potential to be within one inch of an enemy unit (not terrain) then you skip right to letting them get out of the way - and indeed, in a friendly game I'd probably say go ahead and do it, but it is not RAW.

This is very wrong, the monolith does not need to roll for mishap unless it falls off the table, the codex specifically states that models need to be moved under it when it arrives to be at least 1 inches away from a monolith.

Thus, the arrival and the 1 inch move happen at exactly the same time, thus when it arrives, there's no units with-in one inch. There's no "Stack" of actions, they happen both at the same time.

I really wish you wouldn't try and make this complicated when it really isn't, just please stop. Not only are you being confusing, you're not reading the codex correctly and misinterpreting the rules and quoting them as RAW, when the BGB doesn't even enter into the monolith's deep strike formation unless you fall off the table. Like everyone has said, codex takes priority over BGB.

Kreedos wrote:This is very wrong, the monolith does not need to roll for mishap unless it falls off the table, the codex specifically states that models need to be moved under it when it arrives to be at least 1 inches away from a monolith.

Thus, the arrival and the 1 inch move happen at exactly the same time, thus when it arrives, there's no units with-in one inch. There's no "Stack" of actions, they happen both at the same time.

I really wish you wouldn't try and make this complicated when it really isn't, just please stop. Not only are you being confusing, you're not reading the codex correctly and misinterpreting the rules and quoting them as RAW, when the BGB doesn't even enter into the monolith's deep strike formation unless you fall off the table. Like everyone has said, codex takes priority over BGB.

This is actually wrong.

The codex specifically statest that the monolith is not destroyed if enemy models are within 1".

It does NOT specifically say no Deepstrike Mishap (in general) happens - only that one part of it.

It also does NOT specifcally state that models under it are moved - only enemy units.

I wish you would not oversimplify your interpretation of rules as RAW.

Kreedos wrote:

unistoo wrote:Kitzz has it correct as well - you may be playing it differently, which is OK, but it's not RAW. Your codex lets you ignore a specific result - that of being destroyed and only that - anything else is a house rule. My Space Marine codex doesn't tell me I have to be able to see a target to shoot at it either, do I still have to follow the rules? Yes.

Because of the sheer mass of the monolith, it is not destroyed if there are enemy with in 1 inch when it arrives.

This is result 1-2 on the mishap table. The monolith has not arrived until you determine how it will arrive on the table.

Here is my reasoning:

I might land on someone, oh no! - I need to roll on the mishap table (the monolith has not arrived at this point).

I roll a 1 or a 2 - it's OK, when I arrive, they move, and I am not destroyed

I roll a 3 or a 4 - it's OK, I arrive elsewhere, there will be no-one within 1" and I am not destroyed.

I roll a 5 or a 6 - it's OK, I do not arrive yet, I am not destroyed.

All of these conditions fulfill the requirements of the rule: in none of them is there a conflict between the new DS rules and the Necron codex - which is where people go wrong - codex only overrides BGB in cases where the rules contradict each other, and there are no contradictions here, because every part of both sets of rules are met.

Now, you may argue that the RAI means that if the monolith has the potential to be within one inch of an enemy unit (not terrain) then you skip right to letting them get out of the way - and indeed, in a friendly game I'd probably say go ahead and do it, but it is not RAW.

This is very wrong, the monolith does not need to roll for mishap unless it falls off the table, the codex specifically states that models need to be moved under it when it arrives to be at least 1 inches away from a monolith.

Incorrect. Here's what the codex states:

Codex: Necrons 2nd printing, pg. 21 wrote: Deep Strike: A Necron attack is often started by Monoliths teleporting to the surface to act as bridges for the invading forces. A Monolith may therefor be deployed by Deep Strike if the special rules for the mission being played include it. Because of the sheer mass of the Monolith, it is not destroyed if there are enemy within 1' when it arrives. Instead move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary to make space for the Monolith.

Emphasis mine.

Note that the rule does not mention doing anything instead of being misplaced, or instead of being delayed. The Codex only mentions destroyed, so that is the only rule you get to modify. Much in the same way that Extra Armor only lets you modify Shaken results on the vehicle damage chart, the Monolith only lets you modify the destroyed result on the DS mishap chart. If ignoring one possible outcome on a chart let you avoid rolling on the entire thing, then no vehicle with EA could ever be destroyed.

I really wish you wouldn't try and make this complicated when it really isn't, just please stop.

You're right. It's not complicated.

Not only are you being confusing, you're not reading the codex correctly and misinterpreting the rules and quoting them as RAW, when the BGB doesn't even enter into the monolith's deep strike formation unless you fall off the table.

I daresay you're the one who's reading the codex incorrectly. The BGB tells us how DS works, The codex merely tells us how to modify it. Saying that the BGB "doesn't even enter into the Monolith's deep strike 'formation'" is a bit ludicrous. Without the BGB we wouldn't even know what Deep Strike is.

Like everyone has said, codex takes priority over BGB.

Break no rule: http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/How_to_Have_an_Intelligent_Rules_Debate
Like Kitzz and Unistoo said, the codex ONLY takes precedence when there is a confict. In this case there is only a conflict when the BGB tells us to destroy the 'Lith for proximity to enemy models during DS, so that is the only time we don't follow the BGB.

EDIT: Various spelling and grammar and HTML coding. Stupid preview button wasn't working >.<