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Good evening....

This is a little idea I've been bouncing around in my head for a few days now, so I thought I would seek some critique and advice from Dakka.

Although still stumped as to what I'm putting into my Imperial Guard list, I have had the following idea. Namely, to leave all my Infantry Squads as they come, 100% upgrade free. Then, take advantage of the oodles of Special and Heavy Weapon squads I have access to, using these little beauties for Anti-Tank firepower, then take a selection of Tanks to supply the bulk of my dedicated Anti-Infantry firepower.

So the Heavy and Special squads hunt tanks, Tanks hunt Infantry, and my own basic Infantry are for claiming/contesting objectives. The thinking behind this is that my opponent will struggle to take down the Special and Heavy squads, who are either deployed high up in cover (Heavy) or used for scuttling from cover to cover, hoping to make sections inadvisable for enemy Armour to enter. The tanks then support the Infantry, taking advantage of the Turret rules for LR, and the general nastiness of Hellhounds.

Now it has been literally years since I last played 40k, so be gentle in your critique!

Hmmm... A weapon upgrade is so cheap. Once you've bought the squad you might as well include something. The points saves will not be made up in assualt and hvy weapon squads IMO.

Pete

"struggle to take down" and "guard infantry" do not belong in the same sentence. If you rely solely on heavy/special weapons teams for your firepower, you will quickly be left with a bunch of toothless infantry squads that are super easy to kill. If nothing else, give your infantry squads a flamer so they can at least help clear objectives of enemy infantry.

But it brings a single purpose to the squads, and allows me to make the most of my orders.

Keeping Special Squads mobile, armed for Tank Hunting really helps make 'Bring It Down!' hurt the enemy, whereas to an infantry squad it makes only a small difference.

Plus if my Infantry squads are only for taking and holding, my opponent is going to be forced to use a lot of resources winkling them out (Get Down! order) whilst I lose no real efficiency in terms of counter firepower. Position a Tank next to them (say a Punisher or Exterminator with 3 Heavy Bolters and a Heavy Stubber) to discourage overwhelm attacks, and I can turtle up nicely in terrain. And keeping the anti-infantry stuff mobile (it's a Tank after all) means I can then leave a squad to pour it on elsewhere should my enemy ignore that Objective.

Not sure what to do with my Command squads like. I need to consider getting orders to the right people for minimal cost, without leaving the 5 spods comprising it too vulnerable! Perhaps Sniper Rifles, so when stationary, they can add real oomph against Infantry from a safe range?

But with no LD8 sergeant, and no option for a vox, orders are extremely unreliable on special/heavy weapons units.

A single heavy flamer and you can "get down" all you want, it won't save your squads.

True enough but the trick will lie in not letting said Heavy Flamer get anywhere bloody near my squads.

You know, I think I am going to trial this. After all, if it really doesn't work that well, I can use the multiple Special and Heavy Weapons in other ways in the army.

I think the big draw here for me is how cool the army will look if it works. Small hit squads sneaking forward to hit enemy armour, whole enemy squads being mown down by Tanks.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:True enough but the trick will lie in not letting said Heavy Flamer get anywhere bloody near my squads.

You know, I think I am going to trial this. After all, if it really doesn't work that well, I can use the multiple Special and Heavy Weapons in other ways in the army.

I think the big draw here for me is how cool the army will look if it works. Small hit squads sneaking forward to hit enemy armour, whole enemy squads being mown down by Tanks.

People often envision their army in a vacuum. If your opponent brings redundant flamer and melta options, it's not going to look like you think it's going to look.

Thats the chance I'm willing to take.

Though I do like to win, I feel just as satisfed by a good looking battle.

So, what to arm my Special Squads with? I can have 2 per Infantry platoon, so I reckon I'll take 4. Meltaguns whilst tempting, leave them extremely short ranged. Not normally a fan of mixing up weapons (Fantasy mindset I'm afraid) but perhaps a Democharger, Plasmagun and Meltagun ought to suffice? Keep them fairly general purpose?

Heavy Squads I'm thinking 2 Lascannons and Missile Launcher, so that one the enemy armour has been dealt with, they can either tackle Heavy Infantry, or at least lob a Frag Missile into an enemy unit.

Why not 3 democharges? It will make the special weapon squads really funny to see in action (assuming they will survive long enough to make it...)

I also think that the heavy weapon teams benefit from having three of the same weapons. Against AV 13-14 a krak missile is just not going to cut it most of the time, the slight versatility is not worth giving up effectiveness at their original purpose. Three missile launchers, or three autocannons is a good unit if you want multipurpose, but mixing a weapon into a lascannon squad is not a good way to do it.

I also think that a sine 5 point flamer for your infantry squads will make them significantly better for little cost.

Fair points again.

Though highly tempted my surprise Battlecannonesque shots from 6 innocent looking blokes, I am worried about their points cost. Not all of them are likely to make it, specially given their rather terminal short range.

The Missile Launcher should still be okay to use, as whilst it will indeed struggle against higher AV's, I intend to deploy the teams sympathetically, so my opponent will struggle to hide his softer side armour from all of them.

I feel this tactic makes a fair use of the Guards size, in so far that I can really spread out my opponents targets, giving me a fair crack at taking out threats faster than he can, especially if I get jammy and get the first turn.

Mind you, just double checking my book, Democharges do not replace Lasguns, meaning that once chucked, my opponent might well forget about the squad, giving me a sneaky unit for holding objectives, and again, one that reverts to a single purpose.

I don't think there's anything wrong with specializing units for the Guard. If anything that's what the guard is all about. You have so many units that you can usually afford to have each perform a specific battlefield role. I think you will be served well if you take that philosophy for your whole list. Willydstyle is right about the lascannon teams. It's better to have each member armed the same. The same goes for your SW teams. Take two teams with meltas and two with plasma, or whatever combo you like, maybe even throw in a Demo charge/flamer mix for some ouch. You've said yourself that your vehicles will be your primary anti-infantry option, so don't neglect redundancy in your anti-armor choices (redundancy doesn't have to mean spam).
Anyway, sounds like a fun list, I hope it works for you.

Do what you like, but there is really 0 advantage to a SWS over a Vet squad. You cant begin to over estimate the difference between 10 wounds, BS4, LD8 and 6 wounds, BS3, LD7.

Special Weapon Squads are very easy to kill, cover saves mean very little when you only need to suffer 2 wounds before facing a difficult LD7 break test.

Between you CCS and Vet squads every possible role for a SWS can be done far better through other choices.

HWS do bring something to the table however and they can be valuable but again the low LD and low BS makes them problematic unless taken in very large numbers.

Without Chimeras or Valkyries to deliver meltaguns into strike range you will find your army will struggle badly against AV 14. You will need every lascannon you can get so there is no upside to mixing the weapons in your HW squads.

Gunline HWS based guard armies can work but I strong reccomend not bothering with SWS, and using vets for that role instead.

Maugan Ra makes HWS cry.

A LOT of things make HWS cry. Thats why you either need a crudload of them, or dont bother. Against any kind of Flamer or Heavy flamer armed vehicle or squad ( and Vulkan Marines are just a little popular these days) they simply vanish. Any S6+ weapon slaugters them cover save or no and thy are very vulnerable to large blast artillery.

Deepstriking MM/HF Speeders are sick against the LR/HWS combo as you can often arrainge a flamer strike over the HWS that are usually packed close by with the tanks.

Also since your infantry squads are naked they just get rolled over by any kind of tankshock.

The best option really for gunline is not HWS, its blob infantry squads with meltabombs, LC or AC and Flamers or GLs. A 50 man blob squad with lascannons maximizes your order effectivness, can have a vox and has LD 8 base.

Its just better all around !

Don't forget the commissar. A blob squad is not complete without one.

If your opponent tries to charge that squad, they'll be stuck in CC with it all game long.

HWT's fielded within a blobs worth of three infantry sqauds now.. they can eat a template or two and be pretty much okay (well, they will loose 1/2 thier number but still at full shootyness!).

I would like to mention that "naked" (and by naked I mean without a heavy weapon, I can't justify NOT jamming a 5 point flamer in every little place I can) to run simply as tank baby-sitters. A 10-man squad is well equipped to maintain that 6" melta range from your LR, which are usually rather difficult to drop otherwise. The generally make overall good speedbumps, and at 55 points I'm willing to bring 2 or 3 in a 2000 point list to just throw away when I need to. Besides, if you need anti-infantry firepower, 24 lasguns, 3 laspistols and 3 flamers are going to do very respectable damage with FRFSRF.

One of my major concerns with HWS is that S6+ is ID on them now; meaning things like multi-lasers, autocannons, krak missiles, etc. are now killing entire bases at a time. I must admit, however, that the fact that they're scoring now is very appealing. 3 autocannons in cover on a home objective (camped out with your artillery pieces and long-range russes) is a half-decent 75 point investment.

I just think it's a very difficult thing to base an entire army around, and I don't leave home without at least a pair of vet squads doing various jobs (usually 3xmelta, to be frank).

The fundamental basis for your list is a 4th edition mentality, and while I don't intend that to carry any negative connotations, it is outdated by at least 6 months.

What is your list (lots of men, man-killing tanks) going to have to do in order to be successful? A number of things, but primarly, kill vehicles at range.

With no transports and reliance on SWS and HWS, you can't reliably do this. Melta-toting SWS won't be effective until enemy vehicles are already too close for you to deal with. HWTs carrying autocannons or lascannons are not the most points-efficient selections besides lacking mobility and being almost entirely impotent against AV14.

Since you're looking for tactical advice, I'm assuming the intent is to make a competitive list. Let's look at common elements of other competitive lists:

Vulkan Marines (probably one of the most common matchups) feature heavily an abundance of Heavy Flamers, Multi Meltas, and TH/SS Terminators in Land Raiders. Can your gunline stop the Land Raiders before they hit home and tank shock your AT squads (at Ld7) off of the table? No, not really, at least not without exceptional luck.

I think the plan he's going for is more of: fun to play/thematic army rather than a strictly competitive one.
Like you said Mad Doc, test it out a bit and see what flies. You'll end up changing your list over time anyways, so there's no harm in trying something contrary to popular opinion. Particularly since in my experience the meta in the UK is a little less WAAC than over here in the States. Maybe that's changed, but regardless, just have fun. That is the point after all.

When I was choosing an army to get back into 40K, I almost went with the exact same tactic that the OP has used here.

I was going to keep the troops all standard and use Punishers to light my opponents scoring troops up.

40K shooting phases can be done one of two ways:

1) Win by flooding the field with massed FP, where it doesn't matter how good your BS is because the amount of shots you get compensate for the low BS. Guard and Ork shooty forces use this.

2) Win by the quality of shot in the correct place with good BS. Tau, certain Marine armies and Eldar are good here.

I used option 1 in the 2002-2003 GT and two tournaments in Canada and it got me 4th place at the GT Heat and two 1st places in Canada.

Yarr. Not so much interested in pwning all comers, as giving anyone playing me a bloody good run for their money.

Efficiency is something I consider but I tend to view it via list synergy (hence mentioning the sympathetic deployment).

Someone mentioned it being a 4th Ed mentality, which is absolutely correct. I'm a 5th Ed Virgin!

From a Tournament aspect, should I ever play in one, ideally I would an army which gives the Metagaming, WAAC tosspots a real headache, whilst remaining interesting and fun for the better opponents out there. I like a multiple levelled threat matrix.

But theme is very importat to me. I view Guard as being used in a very Chenkov way. Wave after wave of infantry who typically eschew tactics in favour of sheer overwhelming numbers and firepower. Thus to me as a gamer, Veteran units should be kept to a bare minimum. I wouldn't feel it appropriate to include one without at least 2 or 3 maxed out Infantry squads, hence favouring SWS and HWT over them. Feel free to disagree though, and indeed if you feel I'm making a real mistake say so in no uncertain terms, I won't accuse you of flaming (absolutely no point asking for advice if your just looking for justification)

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Yarr. Not so much interested in pwning all comers, as giving anyone playing me a bloody good run for their money.

Efficiency is something I consider but I tend to view it via list synergy (hence mentioning the sympathetic deployment).

Someone mentioned it being a 4th Ed mentality, which is absolutely correct. I'm a 5th Ed Virgin!

From a Tournament aspect, should I ever play in one, ideally I would an army which gives the Metagaming, WAAC tosspots a real headache, whilst remaining interesting and fun for the better opponents out there. I like a multiple levelled threat matrix.

But theme is very importat to me. I view Guard as being used in a very Chenkov way. Wave after wave of infantry who typically eschew tactics in favour of sheer overwhelming numbers and firepower. Thus to me as a gamer, Veteran units should be kept to a bare minimum. I wouldn't feel it appropriate to include one without at least 2 or 3 maxed out Infantry squads, hence favouring SWS and HWT over them. Feel free to disagree though, and indeed if you feel I'm making a real mistake say so in no uncertain terms, I won't accuse you of flaming (absolutely no point asking for advice if your just looking for justification)

Honestly, the way you've outlined your army, you would not give most opponents with well-built lists a run for their money.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Yarr. Not so much interested in pwning all comers, as giving anyone playing me a bloody good run for their money.

QFT

Oh and I agree with you on the wave of infantry/barrage of everything Guard theme.
I don't really use that style, but I love the mental image.

I played my first game with the dex and all i gave my squads was a vox. In the future I will not even give them that. I will have them naked. They worked just fine. I noticed I never gave them orders. Orders only went to my HMT which do not get vox's anyways.

Don't give them anything. Take more men and overwhelm them with wounds. I know a lot of people praise the lasgun in numbers but there is rarely a sutuation where you will have enough Lasguns to do much because of the short range. You do not want to be withing 12" of anything anyways. Its a dead zone. I personally rather charge and get a S4 attack via Straken's FC.

willydstyle wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But theme is very importat to me. I view Guard as being used in a very Chenkov way. Wave after wave of infantry who typically eschew tactics in favour of sheer overwhelming numbers and firepower.

Honestly, the way you've outlined your army, you would not give most opponents with well-built lists a run for their money.

QFT WillyD.

An unstoppable wall of men is doable (well, kinda) but you absolutely have to take the proper weapon load outs. That basically means autocannon HWTs, melta SWS and command squads, and flamer line squads with another autocannon. Sergeants with meltabombs to at least help to avoid tank shock doesn't hurt either, but that many meltabombs could start being a worthless point sink.

5th ed favors target saturation, and most people take that to be mechanized target saturation, but you could do it with weak infantry models as well. I still think you'll have a hard time, but with 200-300 bodies and a special or heavy weapon for every 5th model you should at least stand a chance.

Trying to take a "balanced" assortment of special and heavy weapons is only going to let your opponent eliminate the most threatening, and you don't have enough bodies to prevent flamers from wiping you wholesale.

Grotsnik, I run horde/tank hybrid IG, and I've found that naked Infantry squads just aren't worth it at all. They're just so bad it isn't funny. I always take blob squads, usually four squads of 20 in games under 2000 pts, with Commissars, Priests, grenade launchers, and autocannons. The amount of S6/7 shots from the GLs and ACs mean that most transports short of Land Raiders get smashed up before they can get close enough to utilise the flamer/melta-toting squads within.

As for my heavy support, I like to run a couple of LRBTs with heavy bolter sponsons (they get replaced with Executioners in bigger games or games against 2+ save-heavy armies) and I often use a squadron of two Vanquishers with Pask. It's only two shots per turn, but those shots are effectively R72" meltaguns, and they do quite well.

Back to my Infantry squads. I *always* take Creed for his awesome Tactical Genius ability (suddenly, Demolishers!) and 'For the Honour of Cadia!'. Why do I take Priests? Righteous Fury. Combined with PW sergeants, you've got a lot of re-rolling S4 attacks on the charge, and will overwhelm even Terminators with sheer numbers. Whee! The Commissars help hold the squads in place forever.

If I'm fighting a lot of MEQs, I replace GLs with plasma guns and sometimes even replace the ACs with Lascannons.

It's generally a very bad idea to consolidate your heavy and special weapons no matter what army you play. By keeping all of your dangerous weapons together all you're doing is making target priority simple for your opponent.

If he's afraid of, say, meltaguns then he's just going to target your special weapon squads first and kill them before they're a threat. Sure, you'll castle them as best you can, but 4+ cover only holds out for so long. Even though he'll need to waste a lot of firepower getting through the cover, eliminating those units basically eliminates your entire arsenal of heavy anti-tank weaponry.

Putting these guns together allows your opponent to cut out the heart of your army in one fell swoop, rather than having to eliminate many units in order to be rid of a threat. The strength of Imperial armies is versatility, which is achieved by mixing in heavy and special weapons with your basic infantry. This is a major advantage that these armies have over specialist forces, like Eldar and Tau.