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Okay, I searched but didn't find what I was looking for. Forgive me if this is a well beaten horse.

My Question: You have combined several Infantry squads into a large blob, and you have multiple Commisars in the blob. You fail a LD check, and no other LD factors apply. The commisar's Summary Execution rule states that you execute the model with the highest LD or roll randomly, but they will not kill another commisar. What is the likely outcome of the failed LD test.
A) One commisar kills one random sarge.
B) Each commisar simultaneously kills a random sarge (possibly the same one).
C) Each commisar kills a random sarge, one at a time (resulting in each killing a different model).
D) Some other outcome that I'm not aware of.

Hopefully there is an easy answer, or some RAW bit that I missed. Thanks for your time.

5 Commisars put 5 bullets into one sargeants head, all at once.)

Hm.

C) doesn't seem to make much sense.

I'm fairly sure it's either B or C, although I can't find any firm evidence for either being more likely than the other.

Hmmmm... they obviously foresaw multiple commissars in one unit, because it points out that they will ignore another commissar. For lack of further evidence, I'd say that each commissar has to execute someone, or you'd be ignoring the rule on one of them.

It's a funny mental picture though:
C1: "STAND FAST YOU COWARDLY DOG!" *BLAM!*
C2: "And uhhh... YOU TOO!" *BLAM! BLAM!*

A or B - I think one guy gets executed as an example to make everyone else fall into line.

I would agree that it is one leader that gets executed.... Stupid question though.... Why would you put more than one in an infantry squad if you were going to blob them up? I know that one Vox-Caster is good for the a whole squad of 10 (assuming you did not blob them up) to 50 (blobbed up) figures, why would a commisar be any different?

I do agree that GW saw this comming with the execution rule, but I just figured it was in case a Lord Commissar or Commissar Yarrick joined. I never thought about putting a Commissar in every unit of blobbed up men...

s2ua7 wrote:I would agree that it is one leader that gets executed.... Stupid question though.... Why would you put more than one in an infantry squad if you were going to blob them up? I know that one Vox-Caster is good for the a whole squad of 10 (assuming you did not blob them up) to 50 (blobbed up) figures, why would a commisar be any different?

I do agree that GW saw this comming with the execution rule, but I just figured it was in case a Lord Commissar or Commissar Yarrick joined. I never thought about putting a Commissar in every unit of blobbed up men...

Thats 45 wounds ... I mean Guards men and 10 power weapon ... 30 Power weapon attacks (40 on the charge) ok strength 3 but thats still enough to give even nids and orks pause for thought. Eldar and Tau want to kill this unit and fast.

s2ua7 wrote: I never thought about putting a Commissar in every unit of blobbed up men...

Ya the only benifit (beyond the first commissar) I can think of would be additional cc ability. Which could be good if the blob is meant to tie up something in cc. Not really cost effective at all though IMO (45 pts assuming he has a PW).

Dang, 40 power weapon attacks... Thats pretty sick, I'll have to remember that for my larger point games when I can field that many... I just have to remember to ensure that my commissar and sergeants are up front. Btw, because they are all blobbed up like that, does that mean that the sergeants have to be next to their respective unit or can I place the sergeants up front and the bulk of the guards behind them?

s2ua7 wrote:Dang, 40 power weapon attacks... Thats pretty sick, I'll have to remember that for my larger point games when I can field that many... I just have to remember to ensure that my commissar and sergeants are up front. Btw, because they are all blobbed up like that, does that mean that the sergeants have to be next to their respective unit or can I place the sergeants up front and the bulk of the guards behind them?

I was mostly asking out of curiosity. I had used the single commisar/ multi PW sarge unit several times, then took two blobs with commisar. It struck me that I could put both together for a scary close combat unit (for guard) particularly with creed's FtHoC. I can't really see ever spending the 22pts to fully Commisar a unit, but the question stands: who gets gacked? Seems like it could be taken a variety of ways. RAW seems to indicate option B, but maybe this needs to be included in the FAQ.

?? stupid new Codi causing problems

It's now a single unit, place the members of the unit whereever you want within the unit. So yeah, put those sgt/comm all together in the middle front.

And have Creed give them Glory of Cadia for those 40 PW attacks at ST 4 IN 4.............

don_mondo wrote:It's now a single unit, place the members of the unit whereever you want within the unit. So yeah, put those sgt/comm all together in the middle front.

And have Creed give them Glory of Cadia for those 40 PW attacks at ST 4 IN 4.............

For an army that shouldn't have any CC units, its a scary unit. Then add ether a priest or Yarrik to get re-roll any to hits.

570pts + Glory gets you 40 PW and 93 regular attacks at I4/S4 re-rolling misses. That's a big bucket of ouch no matter who you are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Course, the odds are somewhat stacked against you for getting them all Engaged, but vs orks or nids maybe. . .hmmm how many dead orks is that. . .Good times.

I would laugh if a dreadnought engaged them.

You can give a Sgt Meltabombs, but you better hope they succeed early on or you're screwed.

Orkeosaurus wrote:I would laugh if a dreadnought engaged them.

really? none of the squads have Krak grendades or melta bombs? I think a single dread would die as well

A single meltabomb attack hitting on 6s? Krak grenades that hit on 6s, glance on 6s, and are a huge point sink? Nobody mentioned giving them grenades to begin with, so I didn't count the squad as having them, but they don't add that much.

There are quite a few other things that would put a cramp in their style too. Not getting the charge really hits that unit.

30 Hormagaunts would nearly always get the charge against them. Then that's what? 90 attacks? 60 hit, 40 wound, 26 die? And from there it's hitting on 4s (with no reroll) and wounding on 4s for the guard. With half the attacks.

More than one commissar is a point sink, really. They're not worth their price for close combat, they should really only be taken for stubborn and summary execution.

Orkeosaurus wrote:A single meltabomb attack hitting on 6s? Krak grenades that hit on 6s, glance on 6s, and are a huge point sink? Nobody mentioned giving them grenades to begin with, so I didn't count the squad as having them, but they don't add that much.

There are quite a few other things that would put a cramp in their style too. Not getting the charge really hits that unit.

30 Hormagaunts would nearly always get the charge against them. Then that's what? 90 attacks? 60 hit, 40 wound, 26 die? And from there it's hitting on 4s (with no reroll) and wounding on 4s for the guard. With half the attacks.

More than one commissar is a point sink, really. They're not worth their price for close combat, they should really only be taken for stubborn and summary execution.

Grenades are pretty much out, but the priest could get an Evicerator for 15 pts. 6+2d6 pen. Average roll pens a dreadnaught. Not a great option, but not bad.
Sure, pretty much any big CC unit on the charge kicks their face in, but few units in the game can outlast them, and worst case: take the commisars as casualties and break on their turn. If you survive great, but even if you get run down you can unleash whatever flavor of shooting hell you have in your army. Big scary enemy assault unit either held up or shot down and all you really lost was some guardsmen. Okay, like 600pts of guardsmen, but still. Okay, it's a terrible idea for a unit, but a fun theory.

Speaking of which, has anyone here ever seen the effect of Nurgle's Rot on such large units?

Nurglitch wrote:Speaking of which, has anyone here ever seen the effect of Nurgle's Rot on such large units?

No but it sounds like fun. Fungi for all

The word: EWWWWOOCHhheeougg!!! comes to mind

Redwunz wrote:Grenades are pretty much out, but the priest could get an Evicerator for 15 pts. 6+2d6 pen. Average roll pens a dreadnaught. Not a great option, but not bad.
Sure, pretty much any big CC unit on the charge kicks their face in, but few units in the game can outlast them, and worst case: take the commissars as casualties and break on their turn. If you survive great, but even if you get run down you can unleash whatever flavor of shooting hell you have in your army. Big scary enemy assault unit either held up or shot down and all you really lost was some guardsmen. Okay, like 600pts of guardsmen, but still. Okay, it's a terrible idea for a unit, but a fun theory.

The evicerator's not bad. The issue there would seem to be avoiding Instant Death on the I1 Independent Character.

I think the flaw in the idea is the four extra commissars. That's 180 points on some S3 (S4 if you charge, admittedly) power weapon attacks, and that's really what makes it go from a unit that you can afford to lose and a unit that you can't. Either way it's not a whole lot of offensive power, so the extra cost kind of makes it a unit without a real purpose. As tarpit it's too expensive, as a killer it's too slow to guarantee getting the charge you need. Especially since getting five commissars killed off even when you want them to be is far from a sure thing.

Orkeosaurus wrote:A single meltabomb attack hitting on 6s? Krak grenades that hit on 6s, glance on 6s, and are a huge point sink? Nobody mentioned giving them grenades to begin with, so I didn't count the squad as having them, but they don't add that much.

There are quite a few other things that would put a cramp in their style too. Not getting the charge really hits that unit.

30 Hormagaunts would nearly always get the charge against them. Then that's what? 90 attacks? 60 hit, 40 wound, 26 die? And from there it's hitting on 4s (with no reroll) and wounding on 4s for the guard. With half the attacks.

More than one commissar is a point sink, really. They're not worth their price for close combat, they should really only be taken for stubborn and summary execution.

Well, I give every sgt meltabombs, so for my standard three-squad platoon that's three attacks hitting on 6s. Got a couple of Chaos/Marine dreads, an Ironclaw dread, a Land Raider, a Defiler and a Soulcrusher? (the Daemon Defiler) to their credit so far. Oh yeah, and a Valkyrie........ What I find odd is that the Commissars can't have meltabombs.

And they've swallowed a 20-hormie unit in one round of hth, key is to make the hormies charge into cover, negating that hormie Initiative advantage. For once the charge reaction worked to my advantage.

I do agree tho, one commissar per merged squad is plenty.

If Commissars hadn't lost power fists in this edition then I would run more of them, but oh well.

don_mondo wrote:Well, I give every sgt meltabombs, so for my standard three-squad platoon that's three attacks hitting on 6s. Got a couple of Chaos/Marine dreads, an Ironclaw dread, a Land Raider, a Defiler and a Soulcrusher? (the Daemon Defiler) to their credit so far. Oh yeah, and a Valkyrie........ What I find odd is that the Commissars can't have meltabombs.

Soulgrinder.

Congrats on their meltabomb kills. I still don't know how likely it is for them to actually destroy things with them, but maybe I'll put a few on my sergeants just in case.

And they've swallowed a 20-hormie unit in one round of hth, key is to make the hormies charge into cover, negating that hormie Initiative advantage. For once the charge reaction worked to my advantage.

I think getting a whole 50-man squad into cover would usually be pretty tricky though. And they'd be setting themselves up for Stranglers if they did that anyway. Not to mention taking the cover away from whatever else in their army could use it. I guess it would be good if you had a lot of forests.

When you get to things like slugga boys and berserkers it's also not as effective, although your likelihood of actually charging does increase, so that's worth something. (Still though, orks have a Waaagh, berserkers usually have a transport. I don't think the IG really have anything besides the Tallarn officer for getting the charge.)

Orkeosaurus wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Well, I give every sgt meltabombs, so for my standard three-squad platoon that's three attacks hitting on 6s. Got a couple of Chaos/Marine dreads, an Ironclaw dread, a Land Raider, a Defiler and a Soulcrusher? (the Daemon Defiler) to their credit so far. Oh yeah, and a Valkyrie........ What I find odd is that the Commissars can't have meltabombs.

Soulgrinder.

Congrats on their meltabomb kills. I still don't know how likely it is for them to actually destroy things with them, but maybe I'll put a few on my sergeants just in case.

And they've swallowed a 20-hormie unit in one round of hth, key is to make the hormies charge into cover, negating that hormie Initiative advantage. For once the charge reaction worked to my advantage.

I think getting a whole 50-man squad into cover would usually be pretty tricky though. And they'd be setting themselves up for Stranglers if they did that anyway. Not to mention taking the cover away from whatever else in their army could use it. I guess it would be good if you had a lot of forests.

When you get to things like slugga boys and berserkers it's also not as effective, although your likelihood of actually charging does increase, so that's worth something. (Still though, orks have a Waaagh, berserkers usually have a transport. I don't think the IG really have anything besides the Tallarn officer for getting the charge.)

The meltabombs aren't very likely, but with three attempts per assault phase, eventually you get lucky.

And only the closest model to the assaulting unit really has to be in cover, altho if any models that the hormies can reach with their 12" charge are in or behind cover, that's a difficult terrain test. And I usually only use 30 instead of 50, so it's a little easier. Seems a good balance, 20 was too small, not surviving well enough and 40 or 50 too unweildy (for me).

The flipside to the meltabombs having a low chance of killing a walker is that walkers are usually lacking in the attacks they get themselves. With stubborn in there, you'll probably get a few turns of standstill (which may be good or bad, depending on what else both units could be doing).

The trick for the Tyranid player would then be to form a sort of spearhead and keep the bulk of the squad outside of charge range (so that the tip of the spear hits a model that's outside of cover), although that's getting pretty detailed, and it won't necessarily work with other units on the field, or with some types of terrain. I agree on 50 being too large of a squad in many cases, although it does save on priests and commissars (assuming you're using priests).

Odds on a melta bomb against av 12 (high end dreds) with WS 4 killing out right

1/6 30/36 2/6 or 60/1296 or 4.6% (odds of 5 killing it 21.1%)

against a Immobilised or stunned walker
3/6 30/36/ 2/6 or 180/1296 or 13.9% (odds of 5 killing it 52%)

kind of makes extra armour a no brainer.

Odds on a melta bomb against av 11 (high end dreds) with WS 4 killing out right

1/6 33/36 2/6 or 66/1296 or 5% (odds of 5 killing it 23%)

against a Immobilised or stunned walker
3/6 33/36/ 2/6 or 198/1296 or 15.3% (odds of 5 killing it 56.3%)

kind of makes extra armour a no brainer.

Yeah, for a CC Dread you really want to be able to charge anyways.

(Of course, squadrons are immune by default. Killa Kan squadrons are great.)