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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/107456/100-million-payday-poses-problem-for-pay-czar.html

$100 Million Payday Poses Problem for Pay Czar
by David Segal
Monday, August 3, 2009
provided by


In a few weeks, the Treasury Department's czar of executive pay will have to answer this $100 million question: Should Andrew J. Hall get his bonus?

Mr. Hall, the 58-year-old head of Phibro, a small commodities trading firm in Westport, Conn., is due for a nine-figure payday, his cut of profits from a characteristically aggressive year of bets in the oil market.
There is little doubt that Mr. Hall is owed the money under his contract. The problem is that his contract is with Citigroup, which was saved with roughly $45 billion in taxpayer aid.

Corporate pay has become a live grenade in the aftermath of the largest series of corporate bailouts in American history. In March, when the American International Group, rescued at vast taxpayer expense, was to give out $165 million in bonuses, Congress moved to constrain the payouts, and protesters showed up at the homes of several executives.

As it happens, one can see some of those homes from Mr. Hall's front lawn in Southport, not far from his office. But his case is more complex. Mr. Hall, raised in Britain and known for titanium nerves and a collection of pricey art, is the standout performer at an operation that has netted Citigroup about $2 billion over the last five years. If Citigroup will not pay him the huge sums he has long made, someone else probably will.

The added wrinkle is that Mr. Hall works in a corner of the trading world that appears headed for its own infamy. Regulators are pushing to curb the role of traders like Mr. Hall, whose speculation in the energy markets may have played a major role in the recent gyrations of oil prices.

That suggests that last summer, drivers paid more at the pump, at least in part, because of people like Andrew J. Hall. How do you hand $100 million to a guy who may have profited because gas hit $4 a gallon?

Whatever the answer, the case of Mr. Hall highlights the hazards of mixing the public interest with capitalism at its most unbridled, and it raises basic questions of fairness. There was outrage last week over a report by the New York attorney general that about 5,000 traders and bankers at bailed-out firms got more than $1 million each last year. So it could be politically untenable for a company like Citigroup to pay gargantuan sums even to those who generate gargantuan profits -- the very people the company must retain if it is to recover.

Among those who believe the Phibro-Citigroup relationship is doomed by bailout politics is the $100 million man himself. People with knowledge of talks between Phibro and Citigroup say that Mr. Hall is quietly pushing for what is being called "a quiet divorce" from his parent company and that he has had preliminary talks with one possible suitor.

Wary of publicity and worried that he will become the next marquee villain of the financial collapse, he has discussed with Citigroup's leadership a number of possibilities, including a spinoff.

Mr. Hall has plenty of sway over the fate of Phibro because much of its value is thought to flow from his expertise and track record. If he leaves, he could start another firm and bring colleagues with him.

History suggests that he is accustomed to getting his way. Two years ago, Mr. Hall waged a legal fight with the Historic District Commission of Fairfield over an 82-foot concrete sculpture that he had placed on the front lawn of his 7,300-square-foot Greek Revival mansion, where he lives with his wife, Christine. He thought he did not need permission to display the work, but because of his neighborhood's preservation restrictions, the state Supreme Court ultimately ruled that he did.

"The strange part is that I think he would been approved if he'd asked for permission," says Richard Hatch, who headed the commission at the time.

Mr. Hall lent this work to the Massachusetts Museum of Contemporary Art, though not because he lacks display space. A few years ago, he bought a medieval castle in Germany from the neo-expressionist painter Georg Baselitz, and he and his wife have turned the property, said to contain roughly 150 rooms, into a private museum for their collection.

"He has about 4,000 pieces in what could easily be described as one of the world's finest collections of contemporary art," said a New York dealer, Mary Boone. It includes pieces by Andy Warhol, David Salle, Bruce Nauman and Julian Schnabel.

The son of a British Airways employee who trained pilots, Mr. Hall was raised near London, and he graduated from Oxford University with a degree in chemistry. He moved to the United States in 1981 to work for British Petroleum. His trading there caught the eye of Phibro, a firm that started as Phillips Brothers early in the last century and which, in the 1970s, was the home of Marc Rich, the fugitive pardoned by President Bill Clinton.

By 1987, Mr. Hall was running Phibro. It is based today in a generic red building, part of a bucolic, 53-acre office park that was once a dairy farm. (Its former neighbors included the notorious AIG Financial Products division.) The trading floor is a modest room that was once the company's kitchen, before it downsized about a decade ago.

Mr. Hall and his colleagues -- there are about 55 in the Westport office, and handfuls in London and Singapore -- specialize in a variety of hedging and arbitrage techniques.

Generally, Phibro looks for anomalies in the market and pounces, taking advantage of unusual spreads between the spot price of oil and the price of an oil futures contract.

The company, for example, often wagers that the price of oil will rise so fast during a particular period, say six months, that it can make money by storing oil in supertankers and floating it until the price goes up. (If the price rises by more than it costs to lease the tankers, he makes money.)

Other deals are more complex. Right before the first Gulf War, Phibro placed an elaborate bet that the price of oil would spike and then go down faster than others were anticipating. The company earned more than $300 million from the gamble.

"He's got great memory, great focus," says Philip Verleger, an author of books about oil markets and a friend of Mr. Hall. "He's not as arrogant as other people who make the kind of money he makes. Of course, you make that kind of money and you're going to be a little arrogant."

A spokesman for Kenneth Feinberg, the Treasury's pay czar, said the reviews of compensation figures were just starting and that pay levels must strike the right balance between discouraging excessive risk-taking and encouraging reward.

"We are not going to provide a running commentary on that process," the spokesman, Andrew Williams, wrote by e-mail, "but it's clear that Mr. Feinberg has broad authority to make sure that compensation at those firms strikes an appropriate balance."

The mere specter of such review is already hurting Citigroup. A person familiar with its staffing travails says that for months it has been trying to fend off competitors who are calling employees and saying, in effect, "Come and work for a company that doesn't have to contend with public scrutiny."

James Forese, Citigroup's co-head of global markets, says Mr. Hall's pay-for-performance contract is the kind the pay czar will like. "We're confident in the value these types of profit-sharing arrangements bring to the company and its shareholders," Mr. Forese wrote in a statement, "as they directly align compensation with performance."

Still, the company is an awkward spot, and it is hard to say which is worse: the inevitable public outcry if Mr. Hall is paid $100 million, or the risk that he might take his talents to a firm in which the public has no stake.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

That is insanely hard to read... white on gray, geez Frazzled your going to blind me.

Sounds like a pretty big deal from the looks of it though.

Could someone explain this because I know that I am missing something here. Sounds like the guy deserves to get his money, but people are angry that he profited so much?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/08/04 12:20:13



 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Wrexasaur wrote:That is insanely hard to read... white on gray, geez Frazzled your going to blind me.

Sounds like a pretty big deal from the looks of it though.

Could someone explain this because I know that I am missing something here. Sounds like the guy deserves to get his money, but people are angry that he profited so much?

1. White on grey?
2. He is the new pay Czar, who has been unconstitutionally appointed to mandate salary and bonus caps, at least until the courts knock this scheme out. Citigroup, which is paying the bonus, is one of the big institutions being targetted.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

I was just joking about the immense amount of text, and it is actually pretty hard for me to read that amount of writing with so very little contrast, that's all.

This article clarified a lot for me, the yahoo one just seems to run around and pick up several points mish-mash style.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/5968380/Andrew-Hall-seeking-quiet-divorce-from-Citigroup.html

Here is another from July.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/5908047/Citi-trader-Andrew-Hall-fights-for-100m-bonus.html

Interestingly GW has capped it's bonuses at 1000 pounds I believe. Kind of interesting, although they have not made any sort of record profits by any means.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/08/04 12:42:11



 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Frazzled wrote:
2. He is the new pay Czar, who has been unconstitutionally appointed to mandate salary and bonus caps, at least until the courts knock this scheme out. Citigroup, which is paying the bonus, is one of the big institutions being targetted.


The guy getting the bonus, Hall, isn't the pay czar. The pay czar is Kenneth Feinberg.

Whether or not you feel the "czar system" is Constitutional depends on how you interpret their position relative to the larger executive branch.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

the constitutionality of the the Czar itself is not the focus, but on the constiotutionality of setting wage and bonus scales. Again we go back to er, sorry what article denote the ability of the federal government to set pay scales for hundreds of thousands of people again?

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

It'll be argued under interstate commerce. Though I agree with you that it isn't really a great idea for the government to limit pay. It also isn't really an issue with respect to the larger economic problems we're facing. At least not on a dollar-by-dollar basis. The problem is structural in that bonus systems encourage moment-to-moment business strategies which disregard long-term considerations. That problem needs to be addressed, but there are other, and better, ways to do it that don't involve pay caps.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

I'd better beg off public discussion, this is close to home and I like to brightline separations even on discussions on certain things. Please contiinue amongst yourselves.


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Wallstreet pay regulation is just an angry flash mob issue that is being mishandled and misperceived. Either you regulate the entire industry, or you don't. Forcing the violation of individual contracts based on what is publicly visible and annoying is a horrendous way to enforce market regulation and only serves to muddy the laws and cause job flight to firms that aren't being regulated.


I for one advocate regulating all forms of executive pay. Keep in mind though, thats never been the actual agenda. It's just targeted inefficient witch hunts. As this mans current dilemma proves.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/08/04 22:18:33


----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

I for one advocate regulating all forms of executive pay.

Thats a scary thought.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Frazzled wrote:
I for one advocate regulating all forms of executive pay.

Thats a scary thought.


I suppose it would be for some.

----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

ShumaGorath wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
I for one advocate regulating all forms of executive pay.

Thats a scary thought.


I suppose it would be for some.

It should be to all.
1. Its freeking illegal, unconstitutional, and immoral.
2. screaming slippery slope.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Frazzled wrote:
1. Its freeking illegal, unconstitutional,


That depends on how you read the Constitution.

Frazzled wrote:
and immoral.


People limit the pay of others all the time. Why is it somehow immoral if a group of people called the government does it?

Frazzled wrote:
2. screaming slippery slope.


Yeah, and the written word should never have been invented because it lead to so many horrible romance novels.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Frazzled wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
I for one advocate regulating all forms of executive pay.

Thats a scary thought.


I suppose it would be for some.

It should be to all.
1. Its freeking illegal, unconstitutional, and immoral.
2. screaming slippery slope.


1. Illegal under the constitution means what anymore? Last I checked you were all for wiretapping and civilian surveillance as well as unsanctioned war under the guise of police actions.
2. A slippery slope into state regulated and controlled capitalist enterprise. Soft communism. All the benefits of capitalism. Ingenuity, hard work, and efficiency, without the ludicrous graft, law bending, and corruption you see at the highest levels of pay.

Like I said, scary for some. If a soldier in Iraq makes 1/200th what some illiterate baseball star makes then something is wrong and broken in the system we live in. When some hedge fund manager rakes in billions by playing with the assets of millions of citizens retirement funds then something is broken in the system. When high level financial skill is less about knowledge of the business and market climate and more about how to bend laws then something is fething broken as all hell. But I suppose it would be scary if you're making a lot.

----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





There are already pay controls in place the US. Executive pay is capped around a million a year, it's why so much remuneration got shifted into bonus schemes. I don't see how expanding these controls so that they actually do something suddenly makes them unconstitutional.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/08/05 04:26:50


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
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Chicago

sebster wrote:There are already pay controls in place the US. Executive pay is capped around a million a year, it's why so much remuneration got shifted into bonus schemes. I don't see how expanding these controls so that they actually do something suddenly makes them unconstitutional.


Welcome to America! Where the wonderfully educated masses will run screaming at any mention of regulation. Where "socialist" is the worst name you can call someone, and where even the average Joe will fight for the rights of CEOs to receive their millions.

If it sounds stupid, it's because it is. FOX news types who worship capitalism fail to recognize that the US is not a pure capitalist system. The government regulates some things, thus preventing an Ayn Rand-esque hell. So please, don't waste our time with facts and logic. Logic is just what Europeans use to try and make us their socialist slaves!

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -Groucho Marx
Sanctjud wrote:It's not just lame... it's Twilight Blood Angels Nipples Lame.
 
   
Made in us
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The Great State of Texas

Mad Rabbit wrote:
sebster wrote:There are already pay controls in place the US. Executive pay is capped around a million a year, it's why so much remuneration got shifted into bonus schemes. I don't see how expanding these controls so that they actually do something suddenly makes them unconstitutional.


Welcome to America! Where the wonderfully educated masses will run screaming at any mention of regulation. Where "socialist" is the worst name you can call someone, and where even the average Joe will fight for the rights of CEOs to receive their millions.

If it sounds stupid, it's because it is. FOX news types who worship capitalism fail to recognize that the US is not a pure capitalist system. The government regulates some things, thus preventing an Ayn Rand-esque hell. So please, don't waste our time with facts and logic. Logic is just what Europeans use to try and make us their socialist slaves!


If you think thats the worst I can call you son, you've led a sheltered, sheltered life.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
 
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