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If a transport starts it's move in Difficult Terrain and fails it's Dangerous Terrain Test, then does it count as having moved (as far as the passengers are concerned)?
Just to reiterate, it did not actually move or pivot at all.
I just want to know if the guys inside can pile out then move and assault as normal.

I can't seem to find where the rule book addresses this, or even if it does.
I can see how some other rules for infantry might make it seem like the vehicle has moved but I don't want to use a rule that I can't find just because it "feels" right. That would be rules heresy!

I would say it counts as moving. As the vehicle had to move to become immobilized. Whether it actually advanced doesn't matter. The process of moving caused it to immobilize itself.

Hulksmash wrote:The process of moving caused it to immobilize itself.

But wasn't it just the attempt to move that caused it to become immobilized since no actual movement took place.

Hulksmash wrote:As the vehicle had to move to become immobilized.

And my friend's argument is that the transport, in fact, did not actually have to move to become immobilized. I think you're assuming that wheels spun out or treads snapped, but there could be other reasons for the immobilization.

My thing is that it was declared as if it were going to move, as evidenced from the dice roll and therefore counted as moving. My friend was quick to point out that there are no rules about declaring vehicle movement so we could not say either way what would happen.
The damage result itself does not indicate movement so I just let it slide since the burden of proof would be on proving that the rule does exist rather than proving it does not. Since I could not find it I'm inclined to believe that the rule does not exist.

The rules state that if you roll the difficult terrain dice, then you count as moving for the purposes of shooting. It seems logical to extend this to disembarkation for use as a house rule.

Hmmm... Further reading:

BGB p.57 wrote:Vehicles are not slowed down by difficult terrain, but treat all difficult terrain as dangerous. Roll a D6 for every vehicle that has entered, left or moved through one or more areas of dangerous terrain during its move.

If you don't move, you aren't required to test because the test only occurs during its move. So yes, you have 'moved' even if you didn't actually get to push the model anywhere.

EDIT: Also note that pivoting counts as 'moving' for the purposes of disembarkation even though it too, doesn't involve actually moving the model.

I read through that section to fast. Thanks illuminating the "during its move" phrase, I think that should settle it.
You can't actually say that something did not move if you performed an action that can only take place "during its move."
I also considered the pivoting aspect but since that would also require a dangerous terrain test I think it would still bring it back to the original argument.
But that's only an aside, I think you have the over all answer correct. Thanks for your time and effort!

I would argue that pivoting is not the same as moving as pivoting does not reduce the vehicle's move. The rule even goes on to say that pivoting on the spot alone does not cound as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the movement phase counts as stationary (however imobilized vehicles may not pivot).

BRB pg 57

s2ua7 wrote:I would argue that pivoting is not the same as moving as pivoting does not reduce the vehicle's move. The rule even goes on to say that pivoting on the spot alone does not cound as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the movement phase counts as stationary (however imobilized vehicles may not pivot).

BRB pg 57

Sorry, but:

BGB 'Disembarking' p.67 wrote:If the vehicle has already moved (including pivoting on the spot), the passengers may disembark, but not move any further in that Movement phase.

Pivoting counts as moving for disembarking - which I just pointed out to show that it is possible to 'move' whilst staying still (thanks GW!).

Ok, I see what you are saying Unistoo, but the problem that I have is that rolling a dangerous terrain test has nothing to do with the figures inside the vehicle so they get taken out of the equation. That being said, the vehicle does not move (as per GW standards) if pivoting on the spot if in dangerous terrain.

s2ua7 wrote:That being said, the vehicle does not move (as per GW standards) if pivoting on the spot if in dangerous terrain.

No, it doesn't move if pivoting, but passengers still are limmited in their disembark options.

Look at it like this: You cannot disembark if the vehicle has moved, however if you roll the dice for difficult terrain, that is a declaration of movement (see my point about the test only occurring during its move). Since movement can be 0" (combat speed is up to 6"), you have in effect, 'moved' - albeit a move of 0"

My point about pivoting was that it too limits disembarking, and that it is a similar situation, i.e. a 'move' of 0". And it's easy to imagine the effect on passengers - being thrown about as a track tore or whatever.

EDIT: I mean limits, not prevents, doh!

Oddly it would seem that if no movement is actually made, the only effect is on the shooting phase.

Further movement is not mentioned, as far as I can see - as it is stated that the unit counts as moving "for purposes of firing". Not "for all intents and purposes" or whatever.

The vehicles would count as moving (for disembarking) if it pivots, even though no terrain test is called for, however.

Interesting. More reading!

kirsanth wrote:Oddly it would seem that if no movement is actually made, the only effect is on the shooting phase.

Further movement is not mentioned, as far as I can see - as it is stated that the unit counts as moving "for purposes of firing". Not "for all intents and purposes" or whatever.

The vehicles would count as moving (for disembarking) if it pivots, even though no terrain test is called for, however.

Interesting. More reading!

I initially thought that too, but you need to look in the vehicle section, not the movement section for the relevant rules.

I read sections for vehicles, movement, and transports.

What did I miss?

The rule you mention is superseded by the one in the vehicle sections, as vehicles have their own 'difficult terrain' rules. I initially arrived at the same conclusion as you (before reading further, hence my comment), but when I read the vehicle section it seems pretty clear to me, i.e.

You can only disembark and move normally if the vehicle "has not yet moved".

The difficult/dangerous terrain test is only made when you declare that the vehicle will move.

Once you declare that the vehicle will move, regardless of what happens, it no longer "has not yet moved".

You make the test and become immobilised.

Therefore, if you wish passengers to disembark, they must follow the "If the vehicle has already moved" rules.

EDIT: Clarity. And spelling.

unistoo wrote:The rule you mention is superseded by the one in the vehicle sections, as vehicles have their own 'difficult terrain' rules. I initially arrived at the same conclusion as you (before reading further, hence my comment), but when I read the vehicle section it seems pretty clear to me, i.e.

You can only move normally if the vehicle "has not yet moved".

The difficult/dangerous terrain test is only made when you declare that the vehicle will move.

Once you declare that the vehicle will move, regardless of what happens, it no longer "has not yet moved".

You make the test and become immobilised.

Therefore, if you wish passengers too disembark, they must follow the "If the vehicle has already moved" rules.

I do not understand where point three came from. Every time that idea is mentioned (that I have seen) "in the shooting phase" or "for purposes of shooting" is specified.

I do miss a fair amount, I will try to figure it out. Thank you for pointing out where to start!

My reasoning is that, since you can only disembark and move normally if the vehicle "has not yet moved" - but the only way you take the test is if you move "through one or more areas of dangerous terrain". So logically you must have moved, or the test would not be required. Even if the result of the move is no actual advance on the table.

EDIT: Obviously, this whole 'move-non-move' issue would only come up if you were either:
a) immediately outside the dangerous terrain at the start of your move,
b) in dangerous terrain, but immediately at the exit point at the start of your move; or
c) moving entirely with an area of dangerous terrain

Otherwise you would resolve it at the point of entry or point of exit as per the example in the rulebook, meaning you have moved at least some distance to get there.

unistoo wrote:My reasoning is that, since you can only disembark and move normally if the vehicle "has not yet moved" - but the only way you take the test is if you move "through one or more areas of dangerous terrain". So logically you must have moved, or the test would not be required. Even if the result of the move is no actual advance on the table.

Agreed.

Thank you, I knew I was missing something.

I always appreciate a good excuse to reread vehicle rules, as a Tyranid player.