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Okay here's the instance .. Say an IC that has already joined a squad of troops makes a charge on an opponent. They charge as a group, but the IC isn't able to make it into base to base due to distance and thus, obviously cannot make any attacks during that turn. Now for some reason my friend seems dead set on the fact that now, even though the IC can't make attacks and isn't in base to base with anyone, he can still be attacked by opponents because they're engaged.

It seems very unlikely to me that this would be the case, that ICs can be attacked, but not attack, simply because they're not in base to base yet engaged. It's as clear as day to me on page 49 but he doesn't seem think so. Please let me know what you guys think. Thanks in advance.

In that scenario the assaulted unit is not engaged with the IC so it cannot direct its attacks towards him. Units have to have at least one model in base to base with a target unit in order to attack. It doesn't matter if the defender has models within 2" of the IC.

Thanks for the quick reply.

Just to clarify, perhaps we both had the wrong definition of "engaged," which would make perfect sense. We both were under the assumption that enganged simply meant locked in combat, is this not the case? Does engaged mean base to base (and within 2" of someone who is in BTB in the same unit)?

And thus an IC who is locked in combat, yet not engaged (not in BTB) cannot be attacked or make attacks?

in order for the models to fight they need to be in base to base contact. Any model within 2" can also fight. Wounds can be allocated on to any one in the unit that's been attacked.

IC always count as a separate unit and should be moved first to combat. Since an IC is a separate unit he can only be attacked if some one is in Base to base contact with him.

Tri wrote:IC always count as a separate unit and should be moved first to combat. Since an IC is a separate unit he can only be attacked if some one is in Base to base contact with him.

Nitpick: always count as a separate unit during the attack/be attacked stage of close combat. Before and after that they are part of units they were part of before the combat started.

As I understand it...

When a unit declares an assault, any IC's attached move first if they can reach any models in the target unit.

If the IC does not reach base contact, it will be included in the list of models which the opponent must attempt to base with their 6" pile-in move.

At this point, when attacks are made, anyone who is in base contact with the independent character can swing on the independent character, as can any model in the same unit within 2" of that model who is not in base contact with another enemy model. In return, the independent character can swing against any unit which he is in base contact of a model of.

The short method of saying this is that before and after swings are made, the Independent Character is treated as a part of the unit they have joined, but during the allocation of attacks it is a separate unit unto itself.

Malecus wrote:As I understand it...

When a unit declares an assault, any IC's attached move first if they can reach any models in the target unit.

If the IC does not reach base contact, it will be included in the list of models which the opponent must attempt to base with their 6" pile-in move.

At this point, when attacks are made, anyone who is in base contact with the independent character can swing on the independent character, as can any model in the same unit within 2" of that model who is not in base contact with another enemy model. In return, the independent character can swing against any unit which he is in base contact of a model of.

The short method of saying this is that before and after swings are made, the Independent Character is treated as a part of the unit they have joined, but during the allocation of attacks it is a separate unit unto itself.

When a unit delcalres an assault, any IC's attached do not move first unless they are they closest model to the unit being charged. what your thinking of is reaction moves by the unit being charged. if there is an Independent character in the unit being charged the IC must make his move first before any of the other models to try and get into base to base with the enemy. Same applies to pile in moves.

Yep, there is no requirement for an IC attached to an assaulting unit to move into BTB first. It is usually advisable to move them early to ensure they get to fight, but it's not always the case. As already pointed out, the requirements of the defenders reaction rules do state that an IC must be the first to respond if he isn't already in BTB with a unit.

Well, from how I read the rulebook, there's no rule that even says that the IC HAS to get into base to base contact. Although if you didn't then you won't get the sportsmanship award because as long as he's within 2" of the target he still attacks. I had an Ork player up against me who always threw Nobz in front of him when they charged so he attacked but couldn't be attacked back. Bah!

But yes, you have to be in base to base with an IC to attack him.

Matt1785 wrote:Well, from how I read the rulebook, there's no rule that even says that the IC HAS to get into base to base contact. Although if you didn't then you won't get the sportsmanship award because as long as he's within 2" of the target he still attacks. I had an Ork player up against me who always threw Nobz in front of him when they charged so he attacked but couldn't be attacked back. Bah!

But yes, you have to be in base to base with an IC to attack him.

I'm afraid you're wrong sir .. An IC MUST be in base to base to attack, that much my friend and I were both very clear on from the start.

It's worthwhile to point out that according to the rules, for all extensive purposes the IC is it's own unit/squad when engaged in CC. The IC cannot attack or be attacked unless in B2B with the opponent as it is considered a completely different unit in CC.

edit: Some rules to clear up some misconceptions in this thread...

"When the attacks are resolved, independent characters are always treated as a separate single-model unit..."

"...this also means that they have to be in base contact with the enemy to be able to attack."

Matt1785 wrote:Well, from how I read the rulebook, there's no rule that even says that the IC HAS to get into base to base contact.

He's a separate unit.

So if he's not in base contact he's not engaged, and so can't fight.

Axyl wrote:It's worthwhile to point out that according to the rules, for all extensive purposes the IC is it's own unit/squad when engaged in CC. The IC cannot attack or be attacked unless in B2B with the opponent as it is considered a completely different unit in CC.

edit: Some rules to clear up some misconceptions in this thread...

"When the attacks are resolved, independent characters are always treated as a separate single-model unit..."

"...this also means that they have to be in base contact with the enemy to be able to attack."

If I may take this a bit further..

If an IC is in a unit, and enjoys some passive benefit from one of the models in that unit, does this then mean that he loses those benefits during the assault?

Not necessarily, otherwise Chaplains would never ACTUALLY allow re-rolls for the hit in melee. It would be just the Chaplain... and that's plain silly.

Axyl wrote:If I may take this a bit further..

If an IC is in a unit, and enjoys some passive benefit from one of the models in that unit, does this then mean that he loses those benefits during the assault?

If it's something that they give him, or he gives them at any point, they both keep it during combat as well, unless stated otherwise. One example of this would be the SM Honor Guard Chapter Banner which adds "+1 attacks to all models in the same unit as the banner," hence an IC joining this unit gains an extra attack during close combat. And vice versa, ICs like the Chaplain mentioned confer rerolled hits on a charge to the unit he joins.

Thanks all for the excellent responses to my original post