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A regular ork has 2 CC attacks right? BUT, a pistol adds one close combat attack to its user, so if a squad of boys had sluggas and a close combat weapon does that give them 3 attacks? If so, that is rediculous!

And 4 on the charge!

Sluggas equal one thing: 128 dice in close combat. Is it 'ridiculous' as you put it? Yes. The answer is yes. The answer will always be yes.

WWWWAAAAGGHHHH!!!

I believe the technical term is 'Redonkulous'.

Yes orks do get alot of attacks, but remember that how often do all 30 orks get into CC? any how using basic maths
if 30 boys attacked 10 basic marines, 30x4=120
hitting on 4+ so 50% 60 hits wounding on(only on charge) 4+ so again 50% 30 wounds... but lets be realistic guys...
maybe if your lucky 15 orks will make it, (6+ armour or should I say T shirt save) 3 of them probably have either big shootas or rokitts and if your like me a nob with power klaw,. so 11 basic boys x4 =44+9 (from gun guys) 53attacks, 26.5 hits and 13.25 wounds...
AND now for the biggie.... AFTER THE MARINES!!!!!!
So you could probably half this total. 7 wounds?
Points costs 30 boys 3 wif rokkits + upgragde to now wif P/klaw, 250ish ,

There points cost are cheep, but thats why they have a 6+ save, If you don't take 30 man squads your probaly wasting your time,

Ironklawmadgutsmek wrote:Yes orks do get alot of attacks, but remember that how often do all 30 orks get into CC? any how using basic maths
if 30 boys attacked 10 basic marines, 30x4=120
hitting on 4+ so 50% 60 hits wounding on(only on charge) 4+ so again 50% 30 wounds... but lets be realistic guys...
maybe if your lucky 15 orks will make it, (6+ armour or should I say T shirt save) 3 of them probably have either big shootas or rokitts and if your like me a nob with power klaw,. so 11 basic boys x4 =44+9 (from gun guys) 53attacks, 26.5 hits and 13.25 wounds...
AND now for the biggie.... AFTER THE MARINES!!!!!!
So you could probably half this total. 7 wounds?
Points costs 30 boys 3 wif rokkits + upgragde to now wif P/klaw, 250ish ,

There points cost are cheep, but thats why they have a 6+ save, If you don't take 30 man squads your probaly wasting your time,

I think you are downplaying orks survivability. A rapid fire weapon with a 24 inch range will, at best get to shoot twice, and that is only if the ork player messes up his charge. So, at best, SM get 30 shots into the orks (one round at max range one at rapid fire) and that averages to only 10 wounds. If the ork player is in cover (or has a mek with KFF) you only average killing 5-8 before they assault. If the ork player does a decent job of moving, and not letting you hose him down with bolter shots, you will be lucky to kill 6 of them with shooting. What I think you did capture is orks ineffective combat abilities against marines. Hitting second, having to use their numbers to counter the armor save, they would probably lose combat without the klaw wielding nob.

A squad geared for combat, first off, would not be 30 models large, nor would it have special weapons. It would probably be 20 boyz, nob pk, bp, for a paltry 160 points. 30 boyz in combat is a waste, you will not manage to hit with all of them, chances are if you lose you will take alot of fearless saves, and the extra durability you get from the 10 boyz can be syphoned off to form another squad.

The squad you modeled, would only clock in at 230 points, but would be used for shooting, and may or may not have the pk nob. What is unsettling about that is the 60 S4 shots it can put out at 18", or to be more true to your example 51 s4 shots and 3 s8 ap3 shots.

I concur with the description "redonkulous" - that's why Ork Mobs need to roll 30 deep.. it's just a nasty green ball of brawl that will annihilate anything in their way!

Thats why you go shootas for the big mobs, still gets 90 attacks on the charge, but can dakkadakka them better on the way in (and don't lose any attacks to give them big shootas).

Jack

With a BS2 only giving 10 hits out of 60 and a WS4 (vs average 4WS) giving 15 out of 30, I'd rather run the troops forward in hope of getting in CC faster to prevent shooty losses.

Mabye its me but bs2 would seem to net 20 hits out of 60 >.>

Bah math fail, that is what I get for posting near the end of work lol. 5+ not 6+ on a BS, so yes 20/60.

Yes...and that is 20 out of 60 from a 24" threat range (6" move + 18" assault weapon).

This means that you can threaten a much larger area with shoota boys than you can slugga boys. Plus, don't forget that they are still Orks with 2 attacks base. This means that after you soften the enemy up with shoota firs, you can still deal out a pretty nasty assault...especially with your hidden PK nob

Ok, i have some fuzzy mathhammer, there was some rounding involved as it was done in my head and its 130 in the morning...

this is an assault that is set up in the marines favor.
shooting space marine: 9 bolt pistol shots and a flame template, lets assume there are 4 boyz under the template, you will usually get more than this,
6 pistol rounds hit, 3 cause wounds, ap5 five dead orks, of the 4 boyz under the template 2 are wounded, again ap5 2 dead orks
orks are down to 23
assault space marine: 18 attacks for the regular marines and 4 for the sergent, 11 attacks land, 5.5 wounds caused, 6+ about 5 dead orks
orks are down to 18
assault ork: 54 attacks, 27 hit, 9 wound, 3+ 3 dead marines
resolution: orks take 2 fearless wounds which probably results in 2 more dead orks
7 surviving marines
16 surviving orks

assault space marines: 6 attacks for standard space marine 3 for sarge, 4.5 hit, 2.25 wound, about 2 dead orks
14 surviving orks
assault ork: 42 attacks, 21 hit, 7 wound, about 2 dead marines
resolution: tie
5 marines
14 orks

assault space marines: 7 attacks, 3.5 hit, about 2 wound, about 2 dead orks
12 orks
assault ork: 36 attacks, 18 hit, 6 wound, 2 dead marines
resolution: tie roughly, the real numbers would say there is a chance marines would lose and at that point combat tactics and atsknf would kick in.
3 marines
12 orks

assault space marine: 5 attacks, 2.5 hit, 1.25 wound, about 1 dead ork
11 orks
assault ork: 33 attacks, 16.5 hit, 5.5 wound, about 2 dead marines
resolution: space marines lose by one, and if the player is smart uses combat tactics to fall back and auto rally the next turn

the result of 10 marines against 30 sluggas, even if the marine player gets the charge, is mathammer wise in favor of orks. Although, if they were shootas it would be different. Also, getting up to 8 boyz under the flame template is realistic with a mob of 30, and if the 1 marine to survive is the flamer, then he could auto rally and hit them with a template that would take the boyz under 11 and get them taking morale tests.

Your math is off, because you failed to include a Nob with PK...and every good Ork player includes a Nob with a PK. The Orks win even faster with him.

Also, even Shootas win against SMs with a Nob + PK in the mix, as he alone kills 1.5-2 SMs a turn...and SMurfs don't have the numbers to absorb those casualties. Also the SMs will most likely have fewer than 10 models in the squad when charging Shootas, as the Shootas will have thinned them down from range.

you also said that wounds cause 5 dead orks, the orks would have 25 not 23

Ironklawmadgutsmek wrote: 3 of them probably have either big shootas or rokitts and if your like me a nob with power klaw,

If your using big shootas in an slugga squad, you should be deploying them near the back of the squad, so they are not assaulting with only 3 attacks instead of 4.
The range of the big shootas is more than enough to be at the back of your squad and still hit while charging.

Rokkits are very similar, though I do not recommend fielding them in slugga squads.

Finally, 30 boys + nob + PK + 3 big shootas is 230 points.

BlueDagger wrote:With a BS2 only giving 10 hits out of 60 and a WS4 (vs average 4WS) giving 15 out of 30, I'd rather run the troops forward in hope of getting in CC faster to prevent shooty losses

First of all BS of 2 means 20 out of 60. Secondly, it depends on the situation.
On more than one instance, I have had 8-10 assault terminators dropped right front of my boys. They are delivered via landraiders, deepstriking, or had them enter the game through infiltrating with Shrike.

Before I assault the termies, I want to try and whittle away as many of them as I can, as they care really nasty in combat. In this situation running does not help, as they are either deep striking or just don't care if I get the charge.

While moving 2 squads of sluggas to engage, Ill fire all the sluggas and big shootas in the squad. Two squads can put out 54 slugga dice, and 18 big shoota dice. That's an average of 9 sluggas wounds and 4 big shoota wounds. Making the terminator take 13 saves will result in 2 dead terminators, which increases the chance that my boys will crack the terminator squad.

After lots of playing, I now always put 3 big shoots in each slugga squad for those situations. It's only 15 points, and I've had those situations happen enough to where the extra shots have proved worthwhile.

youbedead wrote:you also said that wounds cause 5 dead orks, the orks would have 25 not 23

You're correct, i added the flame template wounds twice, new mathammer, done almost as late as the first so if you see any thing wrong with this one tell me... or better yet tell me to stop doing this... i havent slept in two days i should be doing that instead... anyhoo still rounding,

shooting space marine: 9 bolt pistol shots and a flame template, lets assume there are 4 boyz under the template, you will usually get more than this,
6 pistol rounds hit, 3 cause wounds, ap5 3 dead orks, of the 4 boyz under the template 2 are wounded, again ap5 2 dead orks
orks are down to 25
assault space marine: 18 attacks for the regular marines and 4 for the sergent, 11 attacks land, 5.5 wounds caused, 6+ about 5 dead orks
orks are down to 20
assault ork: 60 attacks, 30 hit, 10 wound, 3ish dead marines
resolution: orks take 2 fearless wounds which probably results in 2 more dead orks
7 surviving marines
18 surviving orks

assault space marines: 6 attacks for standard space marine 3 for sarge, 4.5 hit, 2.25 wound, about 2 dead orks
16 surviving orks
assault ork: 48 attacks, 24 hit, 8 wound, about 3 dead marines
resolution: marines lose by 1 most likely resulting in a combat tactics induced retreat
4 marines
16 orks

And it's the marines turn again and he now has a gimped squad against a still fearless ork mob.

This situation is very unlikely to happen however, as most marine players will combat squad and have a dedicated transport of some kind, and it will be rare to see a slugga mob this large, it will also be rare to see boyz without a nob. If the boyz are sluggas, there will probably be 12 to 20 of them and they will probably be in a wagon or trukk. Even if you do see this many boyz, they will most likely be a mob of shootas, either way the nob should have a pk and bp. This wasn't supposed to be a comparison of a certain deployment style of marines to another style of orks, it was supposed to be the basic 180 point filled out troop squads to see they how they compare against each other in a strait assault.

As good as they are there is plenty of stuff out there to wipe them off the board. 10 Khorne Berserkers charging out of a land raider on average nearly wipe the boyz out after no retreat casualties, locking the few remaining models in cc so the Ork player can't shoot them. Black templar can likewise manage this feat pretty handily, as can most CC armies.

Culler wrote:As good as they are there is plenty of stuff out there to wipe them off the board. 10 Khorne Berserkers charging out of a land raider on average nearly wipe the boyz out after no retreat casualties, locking the few remaining models in cc so the Ork player can't shoot them. Black templar can likewise manage this feat pretty handily, as can most CC armies.

Indeed. The trick to assault armies now is to kill ALMOST everyone, then kill the rest next turn.