Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

DJ66 wrote:
Perhaps this should be in a tactics thread, but I've seen this come up so often that I just have to ask the question. The premise behind switching 'zerkers for CSM is that 'they will spend one turn exposed to enemy fire before they can assault.' I'm quoting you here augustus but believe me others have said the same (or similiar) thing. So here's my question. How does this prevent them from being exposed to enemy fire before they can assault?? They still have to get out of the Rhino. The CSM can at least have the Rhino move, exit, and double-tap their bolters. But now they're just as exposed. Doesn't it make more sense to just stay inside the transport and let it soak fire for one turn? Then you could get out and assault as originally planned. If you're doing that, the zerkers perform just as well (even better in assault). I don't understand this line of reasoning that CSMs are better in Rhinos at all.

From my army list thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/251544.page

Im not sure what the question is here. Zerkers are better in Landraiders simply because they get a ~24" charge range. Zerkers are better at melee than CSM, so this makes sense.

Judging from Augustus' post, he was saying LRs cost a lot. CSMs are significantly less than Zerkers. They also have better shooting, so they can shoot the 2 meltas out of the rhino and stay inside for a turn. Then they can get out, use the 2 meltas again, and charge.

I would rather have twice as many Berzerkers in Rhinos than Land Raiders. Plus it doesn't eat up slots for my 3 Defilers!

Nurgleboy77 wrote:I would rather have twice as many Berzerkers in Rhinos than Land Raiders. Plus it doesn't eat up slots for my 3 Defilers!

Most lists with Zerkers in LRs also have a terminator unit deepstriking in. Just make it a dedicated transport.

So it takes up my Dreadnoughts' slots...ok. LOL

I dont know what youre "LOLing" about, but Im not talking about your list, am I? Im talking about the Zerker in a LR list.

Yea but a "zerker in a LR" list only has 3 zerkers in LR's. Against a melta heavy army, or mech heavy army, the zerkers pop out of the LR's, munch one squad, and then die horribly. You get a very small army that has many foils.

If you bring rhinos, your zerkers are just as protected, and you can have alot more, you just have to wait an extra turn to assault. (And you should not disembark from your vehicle until the start of your next turn naturally, ie, the turn you will actually assault.)

Sorry, new player here looking to play a Chaos Zerker army, but how exactly does a 24" charge work from a LR?

12''+2'' (disembark?)+6'' = 20??

Or am I missing something really basic?

whitedragon wrote:
If you bring rhinos, your zerkers are just as protected, and you can have alot more, you just have to wait an extra turn to assault. (And you should not disembark from your vehicle until the start of your next turn naturally, ie, the turn you will actually assault.)

I'm not sure if I understood you correctly, but it sounded like you just said berzerkers are just as protected in a rhino as a landraider? I agree that taking a landraider(s) for the extra protection means you get a lot less berzerkers , but I completely disagree that they are just as protected in a rhino. I'm assuming I misunderstood or you mistyped because that just doesnt seem logical.

I follow the line of thinking that instead of blowing a lot of points on a vehicle which has essentially one wound(and will be the target of all anti-tank weapons), it is smarter to take the much much cheaper rhino and have your troop numbers doubled (or more). Even if you lose more rhinos due to the lower armor, I think you are more than making up for it with the troop numbers. This is essentially the idea behind my army (nurgle-heavy foot sloggers). Having the numbers to take wounds and keep on going is far more important than taking heavy armor to protect the individual infantryman. Kinda reminds me of the first batman movie "Why didn't they put this into production(talking about the prototype body armor)?" "The government didn't think the average soldiers life was worth $X00,000"

Night Lords wrote:I dont know what youre "LOLing" about, but Im not talking about your list, am I? Im talking about the Zerker in a LR list.

I dont really know either, people that end their sentences with "LOL" usually aren't making a lot of sense to begin with.

I was laughing because I take 3 Defilers and 3 Dreads with my Zerkers in Rhinos. I don't have any slots for Land Raiders anywhere, nor would I spend the points for them, since I can just get twice as many Zerkers in Rhinos instead.

Sorry to have treaded on your lack of humor.

Halsfield wrote:
I'm not sure if I understood you correctly, but it sounded like you just said berzerkers are just as protected in a rhino as a landraider?

In a rhino or landraider, it doesn't matter, the berzerkers are "embarked" and can't be shot as they traverse the table. That makes them "protected". With the new vehicle rules, they are only wounded if you roll a 6 on the damage chart. So in either case, they are free from harm, the land raider is just tougher to blow up, but the rhino gets free smoke and you can have two zerkers in rhinos for every 1 zerker in land raider. I'd rarther have 4-6 zerker squads in rhino's then 2-3 zerkers in land raiders.

So yes, you understood me correctly.

grimz wrote:Sorry, new player here looking to play a Chaos Zerker army, but how exactly does a 24" charge work from a LR?

12''+2'' (disembark?)+6'' = 20??

Or am I missing something really basic?

Well, 20'' is correct.
A unit that can fleet has a range of 21'' to 26''.

wuestenfux wrote:

grimz wrote:Sorry, new player here looking to play a Chaos Zerker army, but how exactly does a 24" charge work from a LR?

12''+2'' (disembark?)+6'' = 20??

Or am I missing something really basic?

Well, 20'' is correct.
A unit that can fleet has a range of 21'' to 26''.

Its 12" + 2" + 6" + the rotating of the vehicle hull.

Night Lords wrote:
Its 12" + 2" + 6" + the rotating of the vehicle hull.

Eh, the rotation isn't that much of an issue like it is for open topped vehicles. A land raider doesn't need to rotate because it has a ramp in the front, and the rhino can't move at all on the turn that the passengers disembark and assault.

whitedragon wrote:

Night Lords wrote:
Its 12" + 2" + 6" + the rotating of the vehicle hull.

Eh, the rotation isn't that much of an issue like it is for open topped vehicles. A land raider doesn't need to rotate because it has a ramp in the front, and the rhino can't move at all on the turn that the passengers disembark and assault.

Why would you not rotate your Raider? Its AV14 all the way around, and by rotating it youre taking nearly 4" away from enemy ranged fire and charging. Plus at the beginning of the game you get almost 4 free inches out of it.

Rhinos are apples and LRs are oranges... either choice is the "right" choice in the right list. Always rotate the LR. If you're going to put something in a LR, at least make it some Termis since they have PW. 'zerkers are damn near worthless except for Assault the turn they charge (and I guess having a 3+ armor save, which CSM do cheaper).

@Nurgleboy: Not to harsh on you dude, but are you trying to just take ineffectual units? Normally you spam stuff that's good.

Night Lords wrote:
Why would you not rotate your Raider? Its AV14 all the way around, and by rotating it youre taking nearly 4" away from enemy ranged fire and charging. Plus at the beginning of the game you get almost 4 free inches out of it.

I see what you are saying now, and that really seems a little too...gamey for me. Not to mention that the 20" assault you get normally is plenty. I understand your point though, it is free movement. Land Raiders have alot of nifty tricks due to their size. Bubble effects from embarked characters, or Greater Demons popping out of the champion inside, get to deploy within 2" of a hatch. Well, a Land Raider is alot bigger than an Aspiring Champion, so you get alot of extra inches out of that.

They are just sooooo expensive and multiple meltas can really ruin your day if you load up on them, especially with berzerkers where you will be tempted to get in close and assault.

@Cannerus,

What are you talking about? Berzerkers are better in subsequent rounds of combat then regular CSM's because they have WS5 and 3 attacks. (2 base+1 for 2 CC weapons) Also, the champion's fist hits alot more reliably with WS5 then WS4. I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

Yeah, I spam unpopular things, and WIN. Just because it's popular doesn't make it right. I have 11 consecutive tourney wins to back it up and a trip to Chicago next month.

My dreads Kill ICs all the time (Dante, Corbulu, Typhus, Ghaz, etc.) and they are cheap! Any fire they take is less fire at my rhinos full of Zerks and Defilers.

Also as far as rotating the Land Raider to get more movement goes, you should really read the box on pg 12 of the BRB. You cannot get extra movement due to the size of your vehicle.

whitedragon wrote:

Halsfield wrote:
I'm not sure if I understood you correctly, but it sounded like you just said berzerkers are just as protected in a rhino as a landraider?

In a rhino or landraider, it doesn't matter, the berzerkers are "embarked" and can't be shot as they traverse the table. That makes them "protected". With the new vehicle rules, they are only wounded if you roll a 6 on the damage chart. So in either case, they are free from harm, the land raider is just tougher to blow up, but the rhino gets free smoke and you can have two zerkers in rhinos for every 1 zerker in land raider. I'd rarther have 4-6 zerker squads in rhino's then 2-3 zerkers in land raiders.

So yes, you understood me correctly.

Well I agreed with you on the rhinos instead of LR's, but I still don't agree with you saying they are just as protected. They can be blown up much more easily, and even if it is just a small chance of them being wounded in that explosion it still has a greater chance of happening in a rhino than in a land raider. It takes some serious artillery focused on the land raider to take it down. A rhino can be knocked out by almost any special or heavy weapon, and if you run into something that is meant to take out vehicles the rhino is in trouble.

Does that make them a bad choice? No, but that doesnt mean a rhino protects berzerkers equally as well as a land raider.

I would be taking zerkers in LR's. They may cost more, and they may mean less zerkers, but at least the fewer guys you have will arrive alive. With a LR they will usually get there, and then you have 2 TL Lascannons and a big box of cover. Rhino's will just die and you cant assault out of them. Whats not to love about TL Lascannons taking down the Russes and Vindi's that will kill your zerkers?