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400pt Dark Eldar Combat Patrol "Kabal of the Red Birds"

HQ

Haemonculus 25 [50]
Destructor 15
Scissorhand 5
Tormenter Helm 5

Troops

Raider Squad 55 [115]
-Dark Lance 0
5x Warriors 40
-Dark Lance 10
-Shredder - 10

Raider Squad 55 [115]
-Dark Lance 0
5x Warriors 40
-Dark Lance 10
-Shredder - 10

Heavy Support
Ravager 105 [120]
3 Disintegrators 15


400pts

Comments and Criticism very much welcome.

HQ

Haemonculus 25 [50]
Destructor 15
Scissorhand 5
Tormenter Helm 5

Why do you have a tormentor Helm on a Haemon that has scissor hands?

Troops

Raider Squad 55 [115]
-Dark Lance 0
5x Warriors 40
-Dark Lance 10
-Shredder - 10

Raider Squad 55 [115]
-Dark Lance 0
5x Warriors 40
-Dark Lance 10
-Shredder - 10

Never take shredders..... ever. They are complete crap.
Also never take a DL on a raider squad, why would you buy a highly mobile open top transport and load it with a unit that contains heavy weapons.

This unit should be equipped with a Blaster (always) and maybe a splinter cannon if points allow.

Heavy Support
Ravager 105 [120]
3 Disintegrators 15

While there is nothing inherently wrong with this unit, in a 400 point game I think it becomes a liability.


Now that being said what would I do with the freed up points?

400 Pts - Dark Eldar Roster

HQ: Haemonculi (1#, 45 pts)
1 Haemonculi @ 45 pts (Scissorhand; Destructor)

HQ: Haemonculi (1#, 45 pts)
1 Haemonculi @ 45 pts (Scissorhand; Destructor)

Troops: Raider Squad (6#, 105 pts)
5 Raider Squad @ 105 pts (Blaster; Splinter Rifle x4; Raider)
1 Raider (Disentegrator)

Troops: Raider Squad (6#, 105 pts)
5 Raider Squad @ 105 pts (Blaster; Splinter Rifle x4; Raider)
1 Raider (Disentegrator)

Troops: Warrior Squad (10#, 100 pts)
10 Warrior Squad @ 100 pts (Splinter Rifle x8; Dark Lance x2)

With this list you double your troops and get an extra Haemon. Plus the fire power is balanced very well.

What you get:
2 Flamers
2 DL
2 Blasters
2 Disintegrators

No, leave the heavies! Just sit there and shoot. Make sure you max out DLs and the Plasma Cannon EQs and just sit there with your three vehicles. NOTHING can survive that shooting at the combat patrol level.

Edit: Our local DE player has lost a combat patrol with that list once, against daemons.

HQ: Haemonculi (1#, 45 pts)
1 Haemonculi @ 45 pts (Scissorhand; Destructor)

HQ: Haemonculi (1#, 45 pts)
1 Haemonculi @ 45 pts (Scissorhand; Destructor)

Combat Patrol only allows one HQ unit.

Also never take a DL on a raider squad, why would you buy a highly mobile open top transport and load it with a unit that contains heavy weapons.

Being open-topped, I can fire it from the vehicle. Thus I get 4 BS 4 Dark lance shots each turn. I have, however, considered turning in one of the DL's for a splinter cannon on one of the squads.

Why do you have a tormentor Helm on a Haemon that has scissor hands?

I had five points, I figured an extra attack in close combat wouldn't hurt.

Never take shredders..... ever. They are complete crap.

Elaborate.

Just looking for more information on your suggestions. I've been posting on other websites and that's how I got it developed this far. One guy suggested three Ravagers and 5 warriors.

Oh boy another long post coming......

No, leave the heavies! Just sit there and shoot. Make sure you max out DLs and the Plasma Cannon EQs and just sit there with your three vehicles. NOTHING can survive that shooting at the combat patrol level.

Edit: Our local DE player has lost a combat patrol with that list once, against daemons.

Again more DE advice from people who don't play them. At 400 points you can get all the Plasma cannon EQs on your transports, and with the prevalence of cover in 5th ed they are not as great as they used to be. Moreover sitting still with a AV 10 open toped fast skimmer is the worst advice I have heard in a long time. Against any competent player you will have 3 dead transports before you get your third turn. (not to mention that warriors are terrible about making leadership tests.)

Your local DE player should be playing tau.

(Also Daemons are cake to beat with DE, just leave everything in reserves and out maneuver them.)


Next:

Combat Patrol only allows one HQ unit.

You can take up to three Haemonculous as a single HQ choice. Army builder is bugged.

Being open-topped, I can fire it from the vehicle. Thus I get 4 BS 4 Dark lance shots each turn. I have, however, considered turning in one of the DL's for a splinter cannon on one of the squads.

So you are paying 55 points for an open topped fast skimmer and you plan on using it as a stationary gun line? The bottom line is that you just want one more DL, then why not make the squad a foot slogger and give them 2 DL. You will pick up 5 more bodies to soak up fire and it will end up being 15 points cheaper.

On a side note, being open toped means you can move 6 inches and fire with everyone inside provided they have assault (blaster) or rapid fire weapons .

I had five points, I figured an extra attack in close combat wouldn't hurt.

A tormentor helm will not give him an extra close combat attack, since he is already packing scissorhands. Use the 5 points to give one raider a Dis.

Elaborate.

Just looking for more information on your suggestions. I've been posting on other websites and that's how I got it developed this far. One guy suggested three Ravagers and 5 warriors.

Shredders are terrible because you can always take a Blaster for 5 points less. Would you take an IG grenade launcher when for 5 points less you could have a melta gun? Hell no.

As per the 3 ravagers option, thats idiotic. What happens when you don't get the first turn? What happens when they hide in cover, behind a building, or in reserves and just pop out to fire one shot at the warriors (because thats all it will take to kill them all.)? What will happen if you play tau (str 5 basic weapons will ruin your day)? I will tell you what.... you will lose. Also there is a huge possibility of being LFG if you win, and lets face it if you take 5 models as your troops and 3 heavies in 400 pts you are TFG.

A word to the wise, there are a lot of people on this forum who like to give advice on DE tactic and play styles, based on what they read in the "dark eldar primer" and what "that one guy, at my FLGS that sometimes plays DE....." said. /endrant


In conclusion, please just try the list I posted. It is very competitive while at the same time being very balanced.

Thanks for the feedback, Clthomps. While I don't doubt your knowledge on the topic. I'm quoting your list over at another forum for a second opinion. This is going to be for a year long campaign in which I cannot change my list. Last year my Tau army was truckled about by armies with heavier armor and my lack of versatile or durable heavy weapons surely caught on to me. I think the Dark Eldar's complex strategies and cheap heavy weapons could help me out this year.

EDIT: Feedback from another Dark Eldar player

I think either [list] would work well. The Destructors and Disintegrators will definatly work well together for combat patrol. Saying that i wouldn't have the warrior squad on foot with 2 dark lances, may as well keep in theme with your rest of your army and just have 5 warriors with a blaster in raider which comes to the same 100pt total and enables the full mobilised feel. It would mean you have 1 less dark lance but instead gain 1 more blaster, but lose 5 warriors for the extra raider. I'd go with the raider... i love them

I always get annoyed when making my variant DE lists that there are quite a few funky things to do with 5pts. It's meant that i have never managed to squeeze in scissorhands for my hermonculi because i've usually just flamed and left them standing there. It gives your opponent a tough decision on their turn whether they shoot and charge him or ignore him and go for your other stuff. If they ignore him you can usually place him in an awkward place to block movement or provide cover saves and if they shoot/charge him the wasted the entire turn for 1 of their units on your 40pt guy, so my advice is as soon as they disembark the raider you place him 2 inches apart and split him from the squad.

I think the other player makes some really good points.

Most often in small games I choose to charge with my Haemon after using the dis. But I do want to tie them up for a while splitting him from the unit is a must. Its great making them choose which unit to charge, Leave the Haemon and get another flamer template to the face, leave the warriors and watch them rapid fire.

The only real thing that he suggest to change is the sniper squad of warriors. This is purely a play style call. I like having a unit to camp my objective, also with 36" range I find that I can cover most of the board from any cover that happens to be on my side.

The extra raider and 5 man squad is for those who like mobility, just remember to keep one raider within 18 or so inches from an objective you plan to claim. And on turn 4-5 make sure you are within 6". You will find out soon that they are not called paper airplanes for nothing. They will die and the unit inside will be Killed/Pinned/Fleeing at a drop of a hat. Infact there are rumors that a stiff fart can even bring one of these down, and I don't doubt it.

I suggest you play a couple games with each list and see how it goes.

Good Luck!

Some more feedback from another DE player

I think our lists are stronger than the Dakka one. With only 2 Dark Lances it has insufficient long range firepower to deal with even one tank which means you have to throw your raiders into close range to get the extra 2 lance shots from the blasters to deal with them, that means exposing your Raiders to short range firepower from rapid fire weapons which will quickly ruin your day (ask Phil what massed bolters or heaven forbid a 2d6 pen range melta does to a raider). There's not really any reason to haveblasters anyway when you're not using th heavy weapon slots so could just as well take Dark Lances. Spreading out the disintegrators also means you lack torrent ability in any of your units, a Ravager can easily cause close to double figures in wounds in a round of shooting which means against most squads you are forcing saves or killing the important bits of the squads (sergeants, special weapons etc) early.

The list also doesn't really know what it wants to do, it has fairly significant outlay on weapons that need to be close to do anything, meanwhile it also has sit back and shoot weapons on the same platform, by taking 2 Haemonculi you're encouraged to get close to use the flamers, but at the same time with the Disintegrator you want to be sitting back and using the range to minimise return fire on your Raider. Raiders really are better keeping their distance unless they are moving forward to deploy assault troops (and a Haemonculus is by no means an assault unit even with Scissorhands). By staying back and using mobility to keep your distance you'll find that there's a few armies that are almost helpless against you as they have only short range fire power (most power armoured armies suffer from this).

If you did want to try a close range army I think you're better off going for a close combat based Wych Cult list as at this points level its hard to get enough firepower in one place to really anihilate a small section of the enemy so you end up in a straight up firefight which you will almost certainly lose. I think the main strengths of Dark Eldar are in cheap long range heavy fre power and mobility so I think its best to build a list that plays to those strengths which is what the Ravager based lists do.

I take it that was posted from the guy that suggested 3 x Ravagers 1 X 5 man raider squad?

Does he know its a 400 point combat mission?

Honestly with the restrictions on armor values what tanks are you going to see? I think he is also forgetting that Disintegrators are str 7 and can be used to pop any tank allowed in a combat mission.

Other reasons I why I would not play that list are stated above.


As per the wyche cult. I believe that is what I posted on the first thread you made. I will see if I can dig up that list.

*Edit*
I found it.

In a 400 pt CP I would play a wych cult raiding party:


Troops: Wyches (7#, 161 Pts)
5 Wyches @ 161 Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Combat Drugs
1 Succubus @ [41] Pts
Agoniser; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons
1 Raider @ [55] Pts
Dark Lance

Troops: Wyches (7#, 161 Pts)
5 Wyches @ 161 Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Combat Drugs
1 Succubus @ [41] Pts
Agoniser; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons
1 Raider @ [55] Pts
Dark Lance

: Warp Beast Squad (6#, 75 Pts)
5 Warp Beast Squad @ 75 Pts
Beastmaster
1 Beast master @ [15] Pts
Agoniser; Splinter Pistol

Total Roster Cost: 397


2 Dark lances
3 agonisers
and all three units can potentially assault on the first turn!

Looking over this again, and with all the talk of anti-tank I assume you are in an armor heavy meta-game and would suggest not running it.

The point of Dark Eldar isn't to just make another gun line army. We can't do that. Eldar might be able to pull it off, but Dark Eldar simply can't because we're too fragile. You want your raiders getting close because your raiders are just 55 pt. shields to put your heavy hitters behind. First turn, turbo 18" and you're pretty much in your opponent's face. He shoots down your Raiders...you've still got your Dark Eldar and Haemonculus' ready to pounce on him next turn.

Long range firepower and mobility do not actually go hand in hand, you're not Tau. A hammerhead can afford to stay back and fire its railgun because it can take the incoming fire. A ravager cannot. With Dark Eldar, you pick one or the other.

Best of luck with this list.

Decided to sign up rather than face the discussion off 2 boards. I'm not the one who suggested the wych cult but the one who posted about "The Destructors and Disintegrators will definatly work well together for combat patrol." My last responce on the other forums was:

"The dark eldar defensive line is the way i have gone in full 1.5k list... 5 Raiders with five man squads + Dark lance, 2 five man wych squads in raiders with a hermonculi/destructor in each, 1 Dracon/Incubi in raider and 3 ravagers. Simply sit back and blow everything to hell countering with the combat troops or using them to mop up the pieces. Comes to 14 DL, 1 Blaster, 8 Disintergrators and 3 combat troops. If you have the first turn there is a good chance most of their stuff that is a risk dies turn 1. If I don't get first turn then i empty out 2 raiders and place the squads in gun placements and then use those 2 raiders and other cover to obscure/hide all the rest of my vehicles

Looking at it i would say a gun line themed 400pt combat patrol would probably be one of the strongest combat patrol lists you can make. 105pts per 5 man squad with a dark lance and a dark lance on the transport is begging to be abused. The Ravagers 3 heavy weapons (3X DIsintegrators) for 120pts is a great addition. So 330 pts for plenty of heavy weapons and the 3 vehicles is definatly the draft you want to work off and then add in 70 pts of individuality. You could go with a hermonculi with destructor for the counter attack to keep their faster stuff from your line and then 30pts for other bits. Another alternative worth considering is going with shadowfields. I played my first game on Tuesday with mass shadowfields on all my vehicles and i have to admit they do increase the survivability of your raiders/ravagers a fair bit (especially from melta weapons, rapid fire and other short range heavy weaps). For 3 of them on your tanks it's 50pts used and leaves 20pts for bits and pieces. I'm sure there are plenty of other decent options as well"


Vs. daemons there is no point in putting things in reserve, start with everything on the board! Get half their army down and most of it can't really do much and then in your turn you will probably smite most of it. If they do have a few things to shoot with then take the first turn and move all the vehicles 7" sideways to get obscured. Daemons is probably one of the easiest armies a DE player can get because they are just chasing ghosts, and you get to shoot it in piecemeal.

So you are paying 55 points for an open topped fast skimmer and you plan on using it as a stationary gun line? The bottom line is that you just want one more DL, then why not make the squad a foot slogger and give them 2 DL. You will pick up 5 more bodies to soak up fire and it will end up being 15 points cheaper.

Foot slogging DE is a bad idea in my opinion. Anything fast and assaulty is going to be unavoidable and kill you with ease. Also out of the vehicle the T3 Sv5+ just means they will get murdered. Indeed you are right Ld is hell for DE so putting them on foot where they become a target for barrage/template/normal weapons fire and being assaulted isn't always the best option. Adding 5 bodies soaks up next to nothing extra, with the raider you still have the choice to field them outside and in decent places to make the extra target/cover and you have the heavy weapons split up. You also get the option of splitting the Dark Lance fire from the vehicle and the troops when needed at any time. There are also lots of cool things you can do with the raiders to block LOS and fields of movement... even destroyed/wrecked they become difficult/dangerous terrain that your opponent will have to deal with.

On a side note, being open toped means you can move 6 inches and fire with everyone inside provided they have assault (blaster) or rapid fire weapons .

I used to swear by blasters in my warrior squads to maximise the S8 weapons but i have slowly gone off them, probably because of the tactics i now employ. The 12" range means my army has probably already failed in it's job, or for some weird reason i have moved towards my opponent. You can pump out so much heavy weapons fire that most armies will be coming at you (especially if you have gone with shadowfields). Shredders aren't too bad to pack the extra blasts at anything that gets close enough but for 10pts each i'm not wasting that many points on emergency last ditch weapons.

As per the 3 ravagers option, thats idiotic. What happens when you don't get the first turn? What happens when they hide in cover, behind a building, or in reserves and just pop out to fire one shot at the warriors (because thats all it will take to kill them all.)? What will happen if you play tau (str 5 basic weapons will ruin your day)? I will tell you what.... you will lose. Also there is a huge possibility of being LFG if you win, and lets face it if you take 5 models as your troops and 3 heavies in 400 pts you are TFG.

The reason i would say a ravager is a neccessity is that triple plasma is still devestating even when they are fully in cover. If you're hitting a squad i find i get about 125% hits against it, then with 2's to wound they are simply taking the 4+ cover saves and have to wound allocate so still a good chance of killing their heavy weapons etc. It also forces them to slowly pace through cover rather than using the open field giving you a tactical advantage. If they have a lot of AT and get first turn then put everything in reserve, you can still move on and use all 3 plasma shots if you move less than 6". If they put much in reserve then all of their heavy weapons in squads will do nothing the turn it comes on. The ravagers also have armour 11 on the front is at least slightly more protection than the raider, and with shadowfields even tau are reduced to shooting ranges that you can avoid for a turn or 2. Plus you still can hide most of the vehicles behind cover and get off shots with the raiders/dark lance troops to get the obscured saves to aid with survivability further. I put my vehicles sidewards hiding behind terrain with the prow sticking out so i get clear LOS from the front gunner, meaning the vehicles DL gets to shoot and you can draw LOS from any part of the hull for the troops shooting inside.

(On a side note the 3 Ravager list also came with the warning Really wanna make them cry? I can suggest something that will be a little broken to try before they hang you.. but I would really only use 1 of the bad boys in combat patrol).


Last minute edit to respond to orchewer:
You have to remember we're playing a small 400pts game, just how much return fire is there going to be if you're sitting at range? I'd say 3-4 heavy weapons at most.,Throw your Raiders in his face and you're adding rapid fire and special weapons into the mix, you're taking more incoming fire and going down much more quickly. If he shoots down your raiders then you've got a bunch of fragile troops in rapid fire range and that isn't going to end in your favour. By putting out more long range firepower than he can return at you you force him to come to you, slowly, because with 4 Dark Lances his transports won't last long so he has to footslog and face 3 disintegrator shots. Mobility and long range firepower can go hand in hand, your mobility allows you to decide what is able to return fire at you and what isn't further reducing what damage your raiders will take at long range.

orchewer wrote:The point of Dark Eldar isn't to just make another gun line army. We can't do that. Eldar might be able to pull it off, but Dark Eldar simply can't because we're too fragile. You want your raiders getting close because your raiders are just 55 pt. shields to put your heavy hitters behind. First turn, turbo 18" and you're pretty much in your opponent's face. He shoots down your Raiders...you've still got your Dark Eldar and Haemonculus' ready to pounce on him next turn.

Long range firepower and mobility do not actually go hand in hand, you're not Tau. A hammerhead can afford to stay back and fire its railgun because it can take the incoming fire. A ravager cannot. With Dark Eldar, you pick one or the other.

Best of luck with this list.

100% agree.

Decided to sign up rather than face the discussion off 2 boards.

Welcome to Dakka! we need more DE players around these parts.

I'm not the one who suggested the wych cult but the one who posted about "The Destructors and Disintegrators will definatly work well together for combat patrol." My last responce on the other forums was:

"The dark eldar defensive line is the way i have gone in full 1.5k list... 5 Raiders with five man squads + Dark lance, 2 five man wych squads in raiders with a hermonculi/destructor in each, 1 Dracon/Incubi in raider and 3 ravagers. Simply sit back and blow everything to hell countering with the combat troops or using them to mop up the pieces. Comes to 14 DL, 1 Blaster, 8 Disintergrators and 3 combat troops. If you have the first turn there is a good chance most of their stuff that is a risk dies turn 1. If I don't get first turn then i empty out 2 raiders and place the squads in gun placements and then use those 2 raiders and other cover to obscure/hide all the rest of my vehicles

Perfectly acceptable in a 1k-1.5k list but at 400 points I don't see how it can work.

Looking at it i would say a gun line themed 400pt combat patrol would probably be one of the strongest combat patrol lists you can make. 105pts per 5 man squad with a dark lance and a dark lance on the transport is begging to be abused. The Ravagers 3 heavy weapons (3X DIsintegrators) for 120pts is a great addition. So 330 pts for plenty of heavy weapons and the 3 vehicles is definatly the draft you want to work off and then add in 70 pts of individuality. You could go with a hermonculi with destructor for the counter attack to keep their faster stuff from your line and then 30pts for other bits. Another alternative worth considering is going with shadowfields. I played my first game on Tuesday with mass shadowfields on all my vehicles and i have to admit they do increase the survivability of your raiders/ravagers a fair bit (especially from melta weapons, rapid fire and other short range heavy weaps). For 3 of them on your tanks it's 50pts used and leaves 20pts for bits and pieces. I'm sure there are plenty of other decent options as well"

OK a couple of things here, you will not be able to take 3 ravagers with those options in a 400 pt CP game. You need to fill out at least one troop choice (80ot is the minimum for a bare warrior squad).

Second Nightshields Are a terrible option on anything but the occasional ravager. At 15/20 points a piece you might as well buy more ships.

Vs. daemons there is no point in putting things in reserve, start with everything on the board! Get half their army down and most of it can't really do much and then in your turn you will probably smite most of it. If they do have a few things to shoot with then take the first turn and move all the vehicles 7" sideways to get obscured. Daemons is probably one of the easiest armies a DE player can get because they are just chasing ghosts, and you get to shoot it in piecemeal.

Have you ever played against daemons? You wont have a ship left after they get half there units down. It is far better to hold in reserves then just dance around them and shoot as your army arrives from the board edge.

So you are paying 55 points for an open topped fast skimmer and you plan on using it as a stationary gun line? The bottom line is that you just want one more DL, then why not make the squad a foot slogger and give them 2 DL. You will pick up 5 more bodies to soak up fire and it will end up being 15 points cheaper.

Foot slogging DE is a bad idea in my opinion. Anything fast and assaulty is going to be unavoidable and kill you with ease. Also out of the vehicle the T3 Sv5+ just means they will get murdered. Indeed you are right Ld is hell for DE so putting them on foot where they become a target for barrage/template/normal weapons fire and being assaulted isn't always the best option. Adding 5 bodies soaks up next to nothing extra, with the raider you still have the choice to field them outside and in decent places to make the extra target/cover and you have the heavy weapons split up. You also get the option of splitting the Dark Lance fire from the vehicle and the troops when needed at any time. There are also lots of cool things you can do with the raiders to block LOS and fields of movement... even destroyed/wrecked they become difficult/dangerous terrain that your opponent will have to deal with.

All Foot slogging DE is a bad Idea.

One or two sniper squads is amazing. Anything fast and assaulty will be in rapid fire range on their first turn, on your turn you roll up 6 inches with both raiders and rapid fire off the balcony, while the Haemons drop flamer templates and laugh. Or simply put they make wonderful bait!

As per the squishiness of warriors in general, I can't recall the last time I had a squad that was not in cover (either terrain on the board, or a dead raider)

More over adding 5 bodies and saving points makes a world of difference. Not only can I take more fire before I run, I can hold an objective twice as long.

Also as a side note you keep preaching how wonderful mobility is and yet you insist on carrying a DL on the raider effectively negating its use.

On a side note, being open toped means you can move 6 inches and fire with everyone inside provided they have assault (blaster) or rapid fire weapons .

I used to swear by blasters in my warrior squads to maximise the S8 weapons but i have slowly gone off them, probably because of the tactics i now employ. The 12" range means my army has probably already failed in it's job, or for some weird reason i have moved towards my opponent. You can pump out so much heavy weapons fire that most armies will be coming at you (especially if you have gone with shadowfields). Shredders aren't too bad to pack the extra blasts at anything that gets close enough but for 10pts each i'm not wasting that many points on emergency last ditch weapons.

As per the 3 ravagers option, thats idiotic. What happens when you don't get the first turn? What happens when they hide in cover, behind a building, or in reserves and just pop out to fire one shot at the warriors (because thats all it will take to kill them all.)? What will happen if you play tau (str 5 basic weapons will ruin your day)? I will tell you what.... you will lose. Also there is a huge possibility of being LFG if you win, and lets face it if you take 5 models as your troops and 3 heavies in 400 pts you are TFG.

The reason i would say a ravager is a neccessity is that triple plasma is still devestating even when they are fully in cover. If you're hitting a squad i find i get about 125% hits against it, then with 2's to wound they are simply taking the 4+ cover saves and have to wound allocate so still a good chance of killing their heavy weapons etc. It also forces them to slowly pace through cover rather than using the open field giving you a tactical advantage. If they have a lot of AT and get first turn then put everything in reserve, you can still move on and use all 3 plasma shots if you move less than 6". If they put much in reserve then all of their heavy weapons in squads will do nothing the turn it comes on. The ravagers also have armour 11 on the front is at least slightly more protection than the raider, and with shadowfields even tau are reduced to shooting ranges that you can avoid for a turn or 2. Plus you still can hide most of the vehicles behind cover and get off shots with the raiders/dark lance troops to get the obscured saves to aid with survivability further. I put my vehicles sidewards hiding behind terrain with the prow sticking out so i get clear LOS from the front gunner, meaning the vehicles DL gets to shoot and you can draw LOS from any part of the hull for the troops shooting inside.

Out of three plasma cannon shots from BS 4 on average you will score 1 Hit and 2 scatters of around 3" (larger than the diameter of the template) But to do this you have to stand still (counter intuitive to there mobility)

Assuming the the targets are MEQ and in cover (thanks 5th ed. ) you will need 2+ to wound, the average hit with a blast is 3 models, being generous we will say the average hit with a 3" scatter is 1. So 5 hit total.


4.15 wounded
Apply the 4+ cover and you get
2.075 dead MEQ

How on earth are you using wound allocation to kill heavy weapons with a ravager? I call shenanigans!


And the bit about tau? What? Rail guns are 72 inches Nightshields are going to do absolutely nothing for you.

(On a side note the 3 Ravager list also came with the warning Really wanna make them cry? I can suggest something that will be a little broken to try before they hang you.. but I would really only use 1 of the bad boys in combat patrol).

Again I can see bringing one ravager to a 400pt CP but three is tacticly foolish.

Last minute edit to respond to orchewer:
You have to remember we're playing a small 400pts game, just how much return fire is there going to be if you're sitting at range? I'd say 3-4 heavy weapons at most.,Throw your Raiders in his face and you're adding rapid fire and special weapons into the mix, you're taking more incoming fire and going down much more quickly. If he shoots down your raiders then you've got a bunch of fragile troops in rapid fire range and that isn't going to end in your favour. By putting out more long range firepower than he can return at you you force him to come to you, slowly, because with 4 Dark Lances his transports won't last long so he has to footslog and face 3 disintegrator shots. Mobility and long range firepower can go hand in hand, your mobility allows you to decide what is able to return fire at you and what isn't further reducing what damage your raiders will take at long range.

It all depends on what army you are facing. If you are facing Marines setting up bait and a counter charge is the best tactic. (like the example I used above)

If you are playing gunline tau, moving 24% dead ahead is a great tactic.

Playing DE means that you have to know your army, and know your opponents just as well.


*edit*

Ughh I was going to touch on the importance of having multiple units of troops for objective holding.... maybe next post...

Welcome to Dakka! we need more DE players around these parts.

Thank you very much

Perfectly acceptable in a 1k-1.5k list but at 400 points I don't see how it can work.

I'll let ya know next week, have a weekend of 40k events at a house party and combat patrol tournament is intended so will be flexing out the Dark Eldar for it.

OK a couple of things here, you will not be able to take 3 ravagers with those options in a 400 pt CP game. You need to fill out at least one troop choice (80ot is the minimum for a bare warrior squad).

Second Nightshields Are a terrible option on anything but the occasional ravager. At 15/20 points a piece you might as well buy more ships.

I'm not talking about 3 Ravagers... i only said that in jest, and yeah forgot you need a 10 man squad for non-raider squads. I was only talking about using 1, the other 2 vehicles would be 5 man warrior squads in raiders and dark lances which leaves 70pts spare. In this small a game the nightshields might prove damn handy for 50pts total on all 3 vehicles, and there isn't much else you can do in way of extra units so boosting with wargear might be the best option. I've always been unsure about nightshields because of their cost but recently i've played lots of marines who rely on melta inc. sisters, white scars and a space wolves and it's made me think again. You limit the most reliant AT weapon of marines hugely with SF. Meltaguns 18" range and 6" for 2D6 means you are pretty secure from them for 2-3 turns, and probably the whole game from ever getting 2D6ed. Stops things like missile launchers and most other troop based AT weapons from getting 1st turn fire so in a small 400pt match i think spending 1/8 of your points on this protection is definatly worth considering!

Have you ever played against daemons? You wont have a ship left after they get half there units down. It is far better to hold in reserves then just dance around them and shoot as your army arrives from the board edge.

I've played against 2 demons and didn;t find either very worrying.
To be honest reserving your army isn't too great an idea vs demons because then a random 50% of your forces will turn up on turn 2, and I've found sometime my best units don't come on till turn 3-4. If the game ends turn 5 then you have severly weakened your chances of winning just to evade a little shooting on the first turn. Demons don't have a massive amount of weapons that will be in range after they deep strike on, much better to have all your army there and ready for whatever drops and kill it taking whatever small punishment he manages to fire off after dropping. The only things that in any way pose a threat is a shed load of Tzeentch shooty units or lots of cavalry and even then keeping your raiders moving over 6" and they will struggle to do much. If tzeentch stuff is shooting you on the turn it drops its also sitting in please template me formation for the ravagers

More over adding 5 bodies and saving points makes a world of difference. Not only can I take more fire before I run, I can hold an objective twice as long.

Also as a side note you keep preaching how wonderful mobility is and yet you insist on carrying a DL on the raider effectively negating its use.

10 man Warrior squad with 2 Lances = 100pts, 5 Warriors + DL + Raider = 105... you save 5 pts. I would hardly say 10 DE warriors can hold an objective twice as long as a 5 man squad! I've found most of the time my squads run before they die. 5 squads need to lose 2 men, and a 10 man squad 3 - to be honest if anything is seriously shooting at them it's probably going to kill enough to make it take the Ld test! I'd say a raider moving over 12" on the last turn with a squad inside has not too bad a chance of surviving. This moves onto the 2nd part... mobility. Raider units have this option and the fact that 2/3 of the games rely on holding and capturing objectives with troops... having 5 of such squads with 24" movement mean you can hugely effect the balance on objectives all over the board with ease. Deployment is effective enough that both lance shots are still fired but can be redeployed with ease and speed. Sacrificing just 1 turn of shooting to move half the board is a very powerful tool. Nothing is really negated, you gain a little protection for your troops and have the mobility for when you need it with a great powerful gunline that does not need to worry about objectives until turn 4-5.

Out of three plasma cannon shots from BS 4 on average you will score 1 Hit and 2 scatters of around 3" (larger than the diameter of the template) But to do this you have to stand still (counter intuitive to there mobility)

Assuming the the targets are MEQ and in cover (thanks 5th ed. ) you will need 2+ to wound, the average hit with a blast is 3 models, being generous we will say the average hit with a 3" scatter is 1. So 5 hit total.

4.15 wounded
Apply the 4+ cover and you get
2.075 dead MEQ

How on earth are you using wound allocation to kill heavy weapons with a ravager? I call shenanigans!

The math

If not a hit:
At BS4: Scatter role of 4 or less = hit, chance = 1/6
1" scatter chance = 1/9
2" scatter chance = 5/36 (1.25/9)
3" scatter chance = 1/6
4" scatter chance = 5/36

Total drect hit chance 4/9
Chance of 1" scatter or less 14/27 (thats over 50% chance!)
Chance of 2" scatter or less 33/54
Chance of 3" scatter or less 39/54 (thats almost 3/4)
Chance of 4" scatter or less 44/54

More than 4" scatter you're probably missing, but if you look at the 3" scatter you've a >2/3rds chance of doing that or better (compare to BS4 hit chance of 2/3rds), which is still going to hit a significant number of guys. The final 1/3rd if you were rolling to hit you're now causing no damage, but with scattering blasts we will likely clip a guy or two at 4" scatter and perhaps even at 5" scatter

The Ravager is a fast skimmer and therefore can more up to 6" and still fire all heavy weapons or up to 12" and will have to fire 2 of the disintegrators in sustained fire mode. This means it still retains mobility compared to the speed of their infanty moving through cover anyways! We are also taking hyperthetics about how large the squad is but when i'm shooting marines i usually always get 4 under the template, alternatively if they are on a building, from a recently destroyed vehicle or just out of combat with a poor consolidate then you are probably talking about hitting the entire squad. I'm never too disatisfied with the power of the Ravagers disintegrators but i'd guess against a 5 man squad you will still cause at least 5 wounds!

And the bit about tau? What? Rail guns are 72 inches Nightshields are going to do absolutely nothing for you.

Maybe so but you're probably talking about 2-3 of them in their combat squad max, and even then making themselves weaker against most other forces. Seperating your warriors from the raiders and obscuring all your vehicles (probably wanting to hide the ravager) still gives you a reasonable decent chance against him. If he moves out the broadsides to shoot and doesn't do enough damage then the ravager and remaining dark lances will probably make easy work of them with return fire. The nightshields still reduce any firewarriors to 24", 6" for rapid fire... so not totally wasted points! OR you can reserve everything if you don;t get turn 1 and just bring it on and kill the broadsides!

Depends on what army you are facing. If you are facing Marines setting up bait and a counter charge is the best tactic. (like the example I used above)

If you are playing gunline tau, moving 24% dead ahead is a great tactic.

Playing DE means that you have to know your army, and know your opponents just as well.

I play marines most and i have not found a fault with my army so far. Occasionally my rolls go poorly but that is the same for any gamer. Dark Eldar have a tendency to go extremely well or extremely poorly due to poor armour all around. Super amounts of Lances and Disintegrators means marines are a great opponent. After their vehicles have gone you can just play with them and i do play counter attack vs them! 2 Wyches and an Incubi squad guaranteed charges make short work of anything that manages to somehow traverse to you. I've also played a lot of tau and again i'm quite happy with my results, winning 3/3 at the current Stockport store tournament. Obscuring everything means even failing to get the first turn I'm losing 1 raider on average to a hammerhead and 2 broadsides and causing much more pain with return fire. I know my army quite well, and i know most opponents quite well - granted i am improving that currently, as i have been out of 40k for quite a while. But Marine, Tau, Nids, Demons, Sisters I've found to be fairly easy with my list!

Last minute edit to respond to orchewer:
You have to remember we're playing a small 400pts game, just how much return fire is there going to be if you're sitting at range? I'd say 3-4 heavy weapons at most.,Throw your Raiders in his face and you're adding rapid fire and special weapons into the mix, you're taking more incoming fire and going down much more quickly. If he shoots down your raiders then you've got a bunch of fragile troops in rapid fire range and that isn't going to end in your favour. By putting out more long range firepower than he can return at you you force him to come to you, slowly, because with 4 Dark Lances his transports won't last long so he has to footslog and face 3 disintegrator shots. Mobility and long range firepower can go hand in hand, your mobility allows you to decide what is able to return fire at you and what isn't further reducing what damage your raiders will take at long range.

If you move up with your Raiders so that every single unit in his army can take a shot at you, you are doing something terribly wrong. Because it's only a small 400 pt game, your opponent is going to bring a max of 4-5 units (more for Guard, sure). You run your Raiders up a flank so only half or less of his army gets clear shots at you. And whatever squad packing heavy and special weapons are downing your Raiders means they can't rapid-fire into the squishy Dark Eldar. I am by no means advocating a balls to the wall full out charge into the middle of the enemy with Raiders. Dark Eldar need to know how to use their mobility effectively.

His transports might actually last a lot longer than you bargained for. Dark Lances are pretty mediocre against AV12 and under, their real strength comes at popping Land Raiders, plus with smoke, extra armour, cover saves....you'll be pretty hard pressed to immobolize or even stun a transport much less destroy one. And what happens when your opponent out mobiles you? Out flank, deep strike, cavalry/beast, fleet, jump/shoot/jump etc. Now you're stuck at your own table edge playing defense because in a game of inches, there are actually quite a few things that can keep up with your stationary sniper squads and Ravagers moving sideways into cover. Mobility isn't about scurrying 6" in your own deployment zone, it's about being able to hit your opponent in his weakest spot faster than he can effectively respond.

And welcome to the dakka community

I will comment on Mes's post in the morning.

But for now you are playing on a 4 X 4 board right?

I gotta say, a year with one list?

Sounds like a really really long time to not be able to change your list. I think I would get really bored after a time.

orchewer wrote:If you move up with your Raiders so that every single unit in his army can take a shot at you, you are doing something terribly wrong. Because it's only a small 400 pt game, your opponent is going to bring a max of 4-5 units (more for Guard, sure). You run your Raiders up a flank so only half or less of his army gets clear shots at you. And whatever squad packing heavy and special weapons are downing your Raiders means they can't rapid-fire into the squishy Dark Eldar. I am by no means advocating a balls to the wall full out charge into the middle of the enemy with Raiders. Dark Eldar need to know how to use their mobility effectively.

Obviously you're not going to be flying right into the middle of his army, but even going down the flank there is still going to be return fire that you wouldn't otherwise be taking if you were further away. Downing your raiders means your troops aren't getting shot, but if they are in the transport when its shot down its pretty likely some will die from the resulting explosion.

What having all those long range weapons does for you is it minimises what damage the enemy can do to you, but because your main weapons are long ranged you lose little of your own firepower by hanging back. Also if your army forces you to move forwards you lose a turn of shooting just getting close, the long range list only loses shooting if it is forced to move. If the long range list is forced to move, its close range firepower isn't that much worse than a short range equipped raider squad. Thanks to the Shredder it can perform decently with the same style of play you advocate, giving you options in how your list plays depending on what your opponent is bringing to the table.

His transports might actually last a lot longer than you bargained for. Dark Lances are pretty mediocre against AV12 and under, their real strength comes at popping Land Raiders, plus with smoke, extra armour, cover saves....you'll be pretty hard pressed to immobolize or even stun a transport much less destroy one. And what happens when your opponent out mobiles you? Out flank, deep strike, cavalry/beast, fleet, jump/shoot/jump etc. Now you're stuck at your own table edge playing defense because in a game of inches, there are actually quite a few things that can keep up with your stationary sniper squads and Ravagers moving sideways into cover. Mobility isn't about scurrying 6" in your own deployment zone, it's about being able to hit your opponent in his weakest spot faster than he can effectively respond.

Transports can be a pain to kill I agree, thats why I sugested taking as many as 4 lances to make it more likely the job is done. As Clthomps pointed out Disintegrators can work against transports too so that gives you 7 long range anti tank shots (and at close range add 2 shredders). Lances may be mediocre against AV12 but they are still the best weapon you have for taking out armour, so if you want to do your best to limit the enemies mobility then you have no real choice but to take them.

Sitting still with your sniper raiders is only the ideal situation, you can still move them 12" and fire off a single lance and the ravager can still move 12" and put out some decent firepower. All the list is intended to do is to make him come to you instead of you having to go to him. I can't think of many armies that can stand up to you in a long range fire fight. |That forces your opponent to move in closer, when he does get close you've already weakened him with your long range shooting and you still have teeth at close range so when he has closed you can pounce on whichever element of his army takes your fancy.

You also ask what happens if you are out mobiled by your enemy, I would say that if you are trying to overwhelm a small part of his line before he can respond then you have exactly the same problem as he can effectively respond and bring his whole army to bear on you immediately. The long range list at least has the chance to remove a lot of that mobility (anything thats not outflanking/deep striking) early by blowing it up before it can get close enough to have an effect on you.

Clthomps wrote:I will comment on Mes's post in the morning.

But for now you are playing on a 4 X 4 board right?

Not really, The tables vary as it's played in a High school math classroom. There's a 3x3 and two 2x5 tables and a trapezoidal table.

I'm a rather experienced DE General of many tournaments, and I'd just like to say, nightshields are definitely not crap.

The number of times that 6" reduction in range has saved my ass is uncountable. Not only does it give you an edge in range against many heavy weapons if you're hanging around and shooting, meltaguns are reduced to 6", and your opponent tends to either forget you have it before declaring his shooting(meaning that he wastes it), or is never quite sure whether you're in range or not anyway.

Not really, The tables vary as it's played in a High school math classroom. There's a 3x3 and two 2x5 tables and a trapezoidal table.

Wow if that is the case I would suggest running wyche cult or a different army entirely. No wonder your tau got stomped last year.

If you are going to run standard DE take the foot sloggers and set up a trap as outlined before.

How about this non-conventional list since your tables give a huge advantage to assault:

400 Pts - Dark Eldar Roster

HQ: Haemonculi (1#, 45 pts)
1 Haemonculi @ 45 pts (Scissorhand; Destructor)

Troops: Raider Squad (6#, 125 pts)
5 Raider Squad @ 125 pts (Blaster; Splinter Rifle x3; Dark Lance; Raider)
1 Raider (Dark Lance; Slave Snares)

Troops: Raider Squad (6#, 115 pts)
5 Raider Squad @ 115 pts (Blaster; Splinter Rifle x4; Raider)
1 Raider (Dark Lance; Slave Snares)

Troops: Raider Squad (6#, 115 pts)
5 Raider Squad @ 115 pts (Blaster; Splinter Rifle x4; Raider)
1 Raider (Dark Lance; Slave Snares)


Total Roster Cost: 400

The main Idea is to totally abuse slave snares on a small board. You should be able to hit at least 2 units with a fly by after you unload your warriors, and you will be able to shoot at a tank to boot!

I'm a rather experienced DE General of many tournaments, and I'd just like to say, nightshields are definitely not crap.

The number of times that 6" reduction in range has saved my ass is uncountable. Not only does it give you an edge in range against many heavy weapons if you're hanging around and shooting, meltaguns are reduced to 6", and your opponent tends to either forget you have it before declaring his shooting(meaning that he wastes it), or is never quite sure whether you're in range or not anyway.

Next time DO count the number of times it saves a ship. While I do find nightshield on a ravager to be a good choice, on raiders they are far to expensive.


As far as meltas the 6" reduction is only good if you are playing idiots. If he is going to play this same list for a year I imagine that his opponents will catch on after game 1...

Also denying them the extra d6 armor pen is a mute point since raiders are made of glass.

Moreover on a 3 x 3 and 2 x 5 table everything is going to be in range regardless of nightshields.

The main Idea is to totally abuse slave snares on a small board. You should be able to hit at least 2 units with a fly by after you unload your warriors, and you will be able to shoot at a tank to boot!

I'm not finding Slave Snares in the codex.

AH HA!!

You sir have the old codex!

I take it your copy does not have magic powers like Animus Vitae.

The best way to tell is to look and see if it has a silly fake stamp that says second edition. Also IIRC the font on the cover changed a bit too.

Current the current codex looks like this:



Slave snares do 1d6 Str 4 hits every time they fly 12" or less over an enemy unit.

Let me clarify my position on the Nightshield.

It is a necessity on a Ravager, as it enhances their durability, and regardless of what weapons you give them, they tend to have an excellent range, so you have them hang back.

If you're taking a squad of warriors with a single dark lance, and a single dark lance on the raider, it is worth the points, as, like the ravager, you tend to be hanging back anyway.

If you're taking a squad with a splinter cannon and blaster, it can be handy if you have the points left over, but since you tend to be within 24" anyway, you'll still be susceptible to a lot of Hvy Weapons.

On a Wyches Raider, or a Lord with Incubi, it's a waste of time.

I was reacting against the claim that 'Nightshields Are a terrible option on anything but the occasional ravager.' rather than to this players specific scenario.